Help for teenage dd.

[SirVixofVixHall]

My daughter, just turned 16, had a very upsetting zoom call with her school friends last night. For reference out of the three others one friend is gay, one is lesbian. Dd is the youngest, two of them are 17.
Talk turned to Sam Smith and pronouns, and to trans ideology. Dds friends are very much in the TWAW camp. Dd is not. At one point one of her friends gave her a veiled threat, mentioning a girl who had been ostracised in school for having a racist boyfriend, eg likening dds views to racism and homophobia. ( i am NOT happy about this ) The same friend also criticised dd for not having her pronouns on her instagram bio .
Dd is a very kind, thoughtful and sensitive person, she is anxious and upset this morning. I have suggested she could send them all Magdalen’s Alex Drummond video, and Barracker’s article on pronouns - ( can anyone link me to that ? I had it bookmarked I thought but can’t find it) . To give them some idea of why she feels the way she does. It sounds a pretty depressing conversation, the totalitarianism dressed up as liberalism, the friend who is getting harassed by men in her job but thinks that sex doesn’t matter. They think that Keira winning her case was a bad thing. Dd is accepting of the differences of opinion and happy to debate, which makes it all even more upsetting and has made me quite cross on her behalf.
She did talk about her point of view, but felt that there were things she couldn’t say, eg when a friend insisted that TWAW, she didn’t contradict her, I think she is worried that she will be dropped by them, she is very fond of them and they are her closest friends in school.
How to help ?

Dd has a separate group of friends in another country, of whom several are lesbian, and all of them are very strongly TWAW, gendered souls etc, so much so that dd has never even mentioned her own opinions. I feel sad for her that there is this crushing of any other viewpoints, and that she is feeling that the only way to keep friends is to not speak up, and that she is akin to a racist for wanting single sex spaces preserved, for knowing that sex is real, that sexual attraction is real, and that this is a sexist and regressive agenda, not progression.
I was 16 in 1980, and honestly it feels like a better time. Most of my female friends had short hair, without being told that made them not girls, most of my male friends wore makeup. I read Spare Rib and felt hopeful for the future. ☹️

I agree with not sending Magdalen Berns videos, although they are brilliant, it would just harden their positions.

Can she try asking them why TWAW, what makes a trans person have more in common with the sex they identify as rather than the one they actually are? She can say she doesn't understand it. They might question their views more if she approaches it this way and won't see it as a bad thing on her part.

I am someone who doesn't manage to maintain close friendships, it's not intentional but my friends have changed over the years. The most longstanding ones are people I see at events. It's not a disaster if she doesn't replicate you and your husband's friendships from school.

No of course, I don’t think it is a disaster at all if she doesn’t keep her friends from school, just that she values these friends very much, this is her “group” and at the moment anyway she doesn’t want to edge out of the group at all. She is a loyal friend but not a doormat , although I think it would be a problem if she wanted to end a friendship with any individual, as they are a group.
It doesn’t seem great to me that that she isn’t allowed her opinion , while the others are, so that side of it isn’t a healthy friendship anyway, although when she has chatted to one of them alone the conversation has been much more accepting and warm.
From the responses it must seem as though DH and I have a lot invested in her keeping these friends, but I really do not mind who she has as a friend as long as they treat her decently. The problem is more the opposite in fact, I don’t like the dynamic here, they made her cry, and I think the veiled threat was horrible. She was bullied in school as a younger child, so my hackles go up at stuff like this.
I suppose I am also struggling with how much this has affected teenagers. One of them kept talking about LGBTQ rights, and sees the T as the same thing as the L and G . Dd sees this as an entirety different thing, so there is a clash right away. Personally I feel that someone threatening you with being ostracised if you have different feelings is not a good friend at all. But from the responses it seems that any teenagers who are critical of gender ideology need to keep very quiet in order to keep friends. Depressing, and also I don’t think her temperament is such that she will keep quiet.

This business is reminiscent of being excommunicated in ye olden days because of thinking.

I think you are right to question the uneven dynamic, but I'd also be concerned if the friend that is warm in private still goes along with the bully in public.
None of this is real friendship, and I can't see it lasting. She's going to outgrow them as soon as she stops being afraid of losing them enough to have her own opinion.

SirVix, perhaps the occasional 1 to 1 chat about it with the particular friend or friends who are able to discuss the topic calmly is the best way forward and just avoiding it (change the subject or flat out refuse if pushed) in the company of the more intolerant one as it will inevitably lead to unpleasantness. A PP said it could be a good life lesson in diplomacy.

@DaisiesandButtercups

SirVix, perhaps the occasional 1 to 1 chat about it with the particular friend or friends who are able to discuss the topic calmly is the best way forward and just avoiding it (change the subject or flat out refuse if pushed) in the company of the more intolerant one as it will inevitably lead to unpleasantness. A PP said it could be a good life lesson in diplomacy.

Yes I think this is probably the way forward for now. To be fair to the one who stayed quiet I think he is still forming an opinion and not sure what he feels. She does have a whole other group of friends from an activity, with whom is has never come up , to her relief as she is certain that her views would be strongly disapproved of.

Possibly she could stick to safer yet related topics like "let clothes be clothes" i.e. any clothes for any gender, same with toys. And how people can be celebrated for being gender-non-conforming while still being their birth sex, and that sex stereotypes can be harmful?

I think I just reacted to you mentioning your long-term friendships because it almost sounded like there was an expectation she replicates the same thing. It's a flaw of online discussion that comments appear more important than they are.

I definitely don't think she should be encouraged to hide her own opinions, but finding a clever way to express them such that it forces the others to consider their views would be a good skill to have.

The other thing that struck me was this:

mentioning a girl who had been ostracised in school for having a racist boyfriend

My daughter (20s) has commented that lots of young women get hassle for their boyfriends opinions. She doesn't understand why the women appear to be considered responsible for men's opinions.

I work in a uni. It's rife. Please please prepare your kids before they go off, GC views are not generally well received, the word 'terf' is slung about a lot.

I think that it is so devisive a topic that it’s better to keep your opinions vague or keep quiet/undecided

Same with Brexit or who you vote for

The only way I manage to have friends across the spectrums on these issues is by being vague about it.

Back in the 80s/90s you could robustly agree to disagree, but the modern world makes you choose sides (;and ostracises those with the “wrong “ Opinion)

At her age, she should hopefully not be spurred on by someone from the older generation to alienate her friends about a political subject. She will have to learn lessons herself about which friends to keep and how much wokeness age can tolerate.

That is what growing up is about.

Having her mum talk her into sharing vids is a bad idea. Mum should not be involved at all IMO.

It’s not the same world it was when we were young and young people have to find their own way through

re: the pronouns thing. If her friends label her as transphobic for not stating her pronouns, her comeback could be that:

• it is transphobic to make people state their pronouns.

-This is because forcing people to state pronouns can make them feel unsafe if they aren't ready to do this. Reiterate: outing people is transphobic.

• or because people may feel forced to misgender themselves, which is literal violence. Misgendering is transphobic.
• so she does not state her pronouns as it oppresses non-out trans and questioning people. She is acting in solidarity with trans people.

This may or may not align with your daughter's position. I assume she feels that she/ her is not reflective of her own identity (it certainly ain't mine! I'll have ex-skater / photographer...my gender is not my identity). It might make the friends pipe down if they think they may be perceived as transphobic for forcing misgendering or making trans people feel unsafe.

@DeaconBoo

Possibly she could stick to safer yet related topics like "let clothes be clothes" i.e. any clothes for any gender, same with toys. And how people can be celebrated for being gender-non-conforming while still being their birth sex, and that sex stereotypes can be harmful?

Mine has taken this tack with new friends as a way of non confrontationally gauging where they stand on gender ideology. It has been surprising that one new friend in particular ticks all the boxes of likely GC until it comes to the well known mantra and then conforms to acceptable dogma. DC likes this friend a lot but continues to keep GC views secret for now.

This aspect of the current climate in itself is really disturbing. Friends having to tip toe around one another assessing what the true opinions of each might and then if all goes well the eventual deep relief in finding that you are both on the same page.

The current situation is bloody terrifying. I remember being a left-wing teenager at uni - along with the majority of my peers - and although I would be surprised when others didn’t share my views and may have engaged in some debate with them, that was it. The idea of ostracising someone for not sharing your political views was and is very disturbing.

How many years before this nonsense ends, do you think? My eldest DD is ten and I so don’t want her to have to deal with any of this crap.

It's fucking terrifying that a whole generation of young people has been brainwashed into believing TWAW.

How many years before this nonsense ends, do you think? My eldest DD is ten and I so don’t want her to have to deal with any of this crap.

Mine are 14 and 17 and aren't going along with it. I know some early twenties young people who roll their eyes too. I don't think the generation just before this one have been captured quite so much. Essential job as a parent is to teach them to think critically though. My dd asked me straight out if I was transphobic when she 12. I explained my concerns and why it was important to see both sides and she totally saw where I was coming from. My 17 year old is extremely down to earth and never went along with it for a moment, even without any input from me. Most importantly sure you're aware of what they're looking at on the internet and what they're being told in school and offer alternative views from early on. Don't let it take hold.

@sproutburger

re: the pronouns thing. If her friends label her as transphobic for not stating her pronouns, her comeback could be that:

• it is transphobic to make people state their pronouns.

-This is because forcing people to state pronouns can make them feel unsafe if they aren't ready to do this. Reiterate: outing people is transphobic.

• or because people may feel forced to misgender themselves, which is literal violence. Misgendering is transphobic.
• so she does not state her pronouns as it oppresses non-out trans and questioning people. She is acting in solidarity with trans people.

This may or may not align with your daughter's position. I assume she feels that she/ her is not reflective of her own identity (it certainly ain't mine! I'll have ex-skater / photographer...my gender is not my identity). It might make the friends pipe down if they think they may be perceived as transphobic for forcing misgendering or making trans people feel unsafe.

It is more that she feels the whole thing is ridiculous, that identity ideology is nonsense.

Oh and I did suggest that video as a possibility, but I am not trying to push her into doing anything at all, more I was musing with her about a way to explain why she felt the way she does, and she thought that video highlighted very well the “male lesbian” issue. I think she has decided to just drop the subject for now although she is annoyed with one of the friends .
As has been said, she will have to navigate her way through this world where we seemingly cannot express opinions as robustly as we could in the 90s, but part of me is wondering, reading the thread, whether we are all taking the wrong tack in staying quiet - I mean most people I know think the whole thing is nonsensical, and yet nobody will speak up ? Surely there is strength in numbers ? Or is the punishment for transgression too extreme ?

I would also keep head down. But maybe some thoughtful assertive statements such as 'I'm not too keen on any sort of views or speech being compelled, because even if something like stating pronouns does turn out to be really helpful to equality, in the meantime we would have given the impression that there's only one right way to think or promote liberal values, and the crux of free speech and democracy is tolerance, not respect or towing the line.' We used to fight for people's right to say things we don't agree with, now we fight over bullying them to shut up.

Is it only girls who have this view? (I know a woke boy was mentioned upthread) I look at my rugby playing, X box mad, army joining nephews and just can't imagine this crossing their minds? I have two young daughters and I'm wondering at what point it becomes an issue they are conscious of and what switches them on to it.

It's almost like they are going out of their way to support an underdog that in reality many of them will not even know.

Having been this age in the 90s our conversations certainly never got remotely political about anything remotely controversial.

I feel for your daughter OP they aren't friends they are bullies.

@ScrapThatThen

I would also keep head down. But maybe some thoughtful assertive statements such as 'I'm not too keen on any sort of views or speech being compelled, because even if something like stating pronouns does turn out to be really helpful to equality, in the meantime we would have given the impression that there's only one right way to think or promote liberal values, and the crux of free speech and democracy is tolerance, not respect or towing the line.' We used to fight for people's right to say things we don't agree with, now we fight over bullying them to shut up.

This is pretty much what she did say at one point, so she is thinking along the same lines as you.

Jakeyboy1 I think it is definitely more of a girl thing, and part of the whole “be kind” . Weirdly they think it is more important to be kind to an adult male than to other girls. Depressing.
One of the them said to dd that transwomen faced double the harassment of women, as they were harassed as women, and also for being trans. So it is not a very logical argument !

@Hailtomyteeth

You can't make this right for her. She's a young adult. The best advice would be for her to keep her head down for now.

This is what we'll have to teach our children - to keep silent about their beliefs and go along with the crowd, for their own safety.

Sadly this is true. My DDs think I’m a bigoted old terf. We don’t discuss it and I wouldn’t want them to agree with me. It’d be a social and professional disaster for them (civil service and third sector) This is a battle for the older generation.

@SirVixofVixHall yes I think you're right about the "be kind" I had similar conversation with a Friend the other day who has a daughter lecturing her on TWAW. I think it will be interesting to see if they still hold this view in a few years time when reality kicks in.

Or is the punishment for transgression too extreme ? Very much so. Anybody questioning the mantra is likely to be branded hateful, bigoted, evil, and worse. Only a few brave souls dare put their heads above the parapet... JK Rowling, Glinner, etc.

The really upsetting thing is that her friend -who I like very much, the one getting harassed by adult men at work,- thinks sex doesn’t matter and yet wants to look less feminine as a way of stopping adult men coming on to her. So these teenagers supporting fully grown adults in their identities, are still getting the same lecherous crap that teenage girls got forty years ago when I was her age, and think that it is their fault for looking female, or attractive. I have a husband, brother, male friends, all of whom I love, but stuff like this makes me detest men as a sex class.