Help for teenage dd.

[SirVixofVixHall]

My daughter, just turned 16, had a very upsetting zoom call with her school friends last night. For reference out of the three others one friend is gay, one is lesbian. Dd is the youngest, two of them are 17.
Talk turned to Sam Smith and pronouns, and to trans ideology. Dds friends are very much in the TWAW camp. Dd is not. At one point one of her friends gave her a veiled threat, mentioning a girl who had been ostracised in school for having a racist boyfriend, eg likening dds views to racism and homophobia. ( i am NOT happy about this ) The same friend also criticised dd for not having her pronouns on her instagram bio .
Dd is a very kind, thoughtful and sensitive person, she is anxious and upset this morning. I have suggested she could send them all Magdalen’s Alex Drummond video, and Barracker’s article on pronouns - ( can anyone link me to that ? I had it bookmarked I thought but can’t find it) . To give them some idea of why she feels the way she does. It sounds a pretty depressing conversation, the totalitarianism dressed up as liberalism, the friend who is getting harassed by men in her job but thinks that sex doesn’t matter. They think that Keira winning her case was a bad thing. Dd is accepting of the differences of opinion and happy to debate, which makes it all even more upsetting and has made me quite cross on her behalf.
She did talk about her point of view, but felt that there were things she couldn’t say, eg when a friend insisted that TWAW, she didn’t contradict her, I think she is worried that she will be dropped by them, she is very fond of them and they are her closest friends in school.
How to help ?

Dd has a separate group of friends in another country, of whom several are lesbian, and all of them are very strongly TWAW, gendered souls etc, so much so that dd has never even mentioned her own opinions. I feel sad for her that there is this crushing of any other viewpoints, and that she is feeling that the only way to keep friends is to not speak up, and that she is akin to a racist for wanting single sex spaces preserved, for knowing that sex is real, that sexual attraction is real, and that this is a sexist and regressive agenda, not progression.
I was 16 in 1980, and honestly it feels like a better time. Most of my female friends had short hair, without being told that made them not girls, most of my male friends wore makeup. I read Spare Rib and felt hopeful for the future. ☹️

But if nobody speaks up then surely everyone else also thinks that most people agree ?

Exactly. They do think that everyone else agrees. That's why it's a shock when they find out they don't. It's like when the Tories win an election.

I see your point OP about if nobody speaks up but when our DC are alone among their peers in a hostile environment, well I would rather not put mine on the front line.

Perhaps underground resistance in their age group will grow and then at some point there will be a few of them to stand up together if they choose to.

At the moment we don’t know which way this is going to go and it could get a lot more nasty than it has been so far for those of us who have an “old fashioned” view on biology and reality. I hope not but we can’t rule it out yet. Really the only way to impose gender ideology is by authoritarian force, they don’t have rational arguments and they don’t seem interested in peaceful coexistence with other ways of seeing things.

I saw a tweet yesterday from a genderist which said “we can and we will compel you”

Pretty scary but this attitude is not uncommon I fear.

It's not just teenagers and they are not monsters. A very old friend of mine, the mother of teenagers, has bought into this ideology, hook, line and sinker. She is one of the loveliest people I know, but she and another lady are dropping long-standing friendships because of these sorts of disagreements.

I don't think there is any harm in your daughter keeping her head down on this subject for the moment.

I definitely wouldn't start with Magdalen or anything else very obvious GC. But it's completely possible to shift your opinion just by looking at what TRAs are doing. I was totally in the "be kind" camp initially but once actually started to pay attention, saw so many red flags. I think what pushed me over the edge was watching an interview with Susie Green one morning where she sounded exactly like all the homophobic parents I've met.

Firstly, I wouldn't state my pronouns even if I believed TWAW. A lovely ex colleague of mine is trans and I worked with her both before and after transition. The change was already stressful for her and the added pressure to state her pronouns before she was ready would have been just cruel. If the pronoun police actually would want to be kind they'd split into pronoun declarers and pronoun abstainers to support those in both groups - before and after transition.

Secondly, I'd teach your daughter to fact check her friends. She shouldn't think she's immune to the false news echo chamber that drives Trump supporters and Brexit just because she's liberal. It will also be very handy if she ever becomes a parent. There is so much false info, myth and wrong advice being spread by well meaning people.

Thirdly, it might be beneficial to look at history. Witch trials, Cultural Revolution, Khmer Rouge, Russian Revolution, cults, Scientology, lobotomy, new agey type trends like indigo children etc. Especially what the people believed, how they positioned themselves and how the ideas spread. Once you're aware of the past you start seeing more parallels with current events.

Then she can slowly drip feed her friends and hopefully make them start questioning on their own

She doesn’t use social media very much, only instagram for specific things that she likes, and a few people she follows. She is a big reader and found Invisible Women an eye opener. She reads philosophy and a lot of classical fiction and has the kind of critical mind that is good at taking in information and picking apart different arguments. Obviously she and I have had a lot of chats about women’s rights, why we have single sex spaces, that kind of thing. She has not fallen for any of the nonsense, but of course she does want to be kind. We have perhaps discussed it more as a family than many people, because DH has a very good friend whose daughter suddenly started identifying as a boy at 16, was swiftly put on cross sex hormones , and at 17 had a double mastectomy. We were all really upset about this so conversations were had. There was also a boy in her school who decided he was trans at about 14/15 .
She might be better informed than her friends, who conflate trans rights with gay rights as that is what they have been told, but being compared to a racist by people who have known her for years has really upset her.
I am starting to worry that it will be even worse when she goes to university, as that is now not all that far away. I just hope things will have shifted a bit by then.

These people are not known for their accurate use of words and definitions. There is no reason to assume they use "racist" or "transphobe" correctly, although, I understand that being called that is unpleasant anyway.

I am worried about University too OP but when is yours going? September/October 2022? You never know how things will be by then, maybe there will be a return to freedom of thought and speech.

I agree with PPs that when we were this age, last century, last millennium even I was not aware of anything like an ideology or belief being pushed on me and my peers, I suppose we were fairly apolitical?

Aurorabor I am with you about looking at history, I can’t seem to get thoughts of the Cultural Revolution out of my head. Obviously though we are a long way from that yet but the idea of a mobilised army of children and teens turning against parents and teachers just keeps haunting me a baby pink, baby blue and white guard.

I can’t seem to get thoughts of the Cultural Revolution out of my head

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@SirVixofVixHall

Have you got snow mejon ? Dds very unhappy that there is snow elsewhere but not here !

Yes we have - sorry! We're inland and up a hill so not surprising. Bitterly cold too.

My MIL has snow. We are jealous. In a normal year we would have been tempted to drive over there before the snow hit, but not this year obviously.

Please don’t try to get your dd to convince her friends. It won’t work. The lesson here is how she handles these friends. Also a lesson for you. Just because you are still friends with school chums decades on is irrelevant.

It is difficult trying to support teens through this. I really don’t think I have experienced anything similar in my lifetime, the absolute shutting down of opposing opinion. I have said that if a friend was to drop her over this they wouldn’t be a good friend anyway, but I can see that isn’t very comforting. I am glad though that she isn’t a sheep, or a teenage dictator. I have a younger dd, and I don’t know how she will cope when she is under societal pressure from her peers to toe the line.

You can't make this right for her. She's a young adult. The best advice would be for her to keep her head down for now.

This is what we'll have to teach our children - to keep silent about their beliefs and go along with the crowd, for their own safety.

Flyingin I am not sure what you mean ?
Dd very much likes the fact that DH and I have our school friends still, and hopes that she keeps hers. I assumed most people did though ?
I don’t want her to drop friends because of differing views, any more than I want them to drop her, but of course that is her choice - is that what you meant ?

I mean that some people are still friends with their school chums and some are not. The lesson here is how she navigates
This tricky situation not how she convinces her friends to think differently. I am gc and my dd thinks I am transphobic. I sympathise with your position but you need to step back.

@HmmSureJan

I think it would be a HUGE mistake for her to be sending videos like that to them as this would cement her position as a "Terf" in their eyes and I think would result in her being ostracised and severely bullied. I advise my children to keep their heads down and not get involved in any discussion, just nod and listen and give neutral responses. My children are GC and don't buy into the nonsense but they know the value in protecting themselves from the shameful bullying and abuse that would result in them challenging their friends. I've no other advice really. It's very difficult.

This exactly. And find new friends. It's all going to come to a head soon and these malicious and bullying types will backtrack. I have never known anything like this in its insidious totalitarianism.

I agree with the others who have advised that she keeps quiet. My DS is at uni and he has to do this - he dare not say a word. Not everyone is on board but none of them can speak up. There are some lecturers without pronouns which may mean they are not true believers. Still, nobody can say a word - DS reckons he would be disciplined or chucked out if he questioned anything.

Same with me really... I tread carefully...

She is cheerful now, she asked my advice this morning as she was really upset, but she’s had a lovely day with her sister and so hopefully will work out what she wants to do, I will talk to her tomorrow if she is still upset then. I must admit I am surprised at the pretty unanimous “tell her to keep her views to herself” advice. Seems the situation is worse than I thought. I come from a fairly political family -debate and sharing opinions have always been a big part of that. My children have been brought up to say what they think on political issues. I find it genuinely frightening that this might be a very negative thing for them, but also frightening for us as a society that the consensus is that is is better to keep one’s head down. I am worried, for my dd’s future , particularly her life at university, and for all of us in this climate. Maybe I just haven’t taken seriously how bad it has all become.

This absolutely pains me to admit this...but I have an almost reverse issue - my DD (17) has complained about friends and teachers who she claims are transphobic...as a result of listening to her talk about these things, I would suggest your daughter tread lightly. My DD feels like it's her moral duty to be a social justice warrior and while I can understand and support her fight against racism, she's applying the same logic to TRA, but unable yet to see how they are very, very different. I'm doing my best to talk her through this without alienating her. She's not militant, and as as far as I know she hasn't dropped friends, but she also has told me that if she didn't play the whole woke trans line, she's be ostracized and she's terrified that someone will attack me for voicing minor opposition to the standard script (oddly, she's not worried about her dad, who is very openly, "this whole trans ideology is bonkers"). The odd thing in all of this, my DD HAS been attacked for not being woke enough about trans issues because she has said that TW are not biological women. However, she thinks we can all "help" by using pronouns, opening up spaces, etc. and she uses the line, "people should educate themselves." She's essentially contradicting herself, which I hope, with maturity, she'll work her way out of this.

Where I have made headway is LEADING with compassion for trans folks, which I genuinely have, so that is at least easy. I've also used sexism and sexual harassment as topics to share how males are socialized to be aggressive towards women and girls.

I would strongly urge your daughter to keep her friends, but find ways to subtly voice her opinion using common ground topics.

For the posters above who talk of the Khmer Rouge and witch hunts...I've had the same thoughts while listening to these young people who both look to find people to cancel and simultaneously fear cancelling. Tonight, I had hope when my daughter said, "I can't wait for college. I can be a new person and one will know me from now." It's a sign that they are all on edge with the drama.

Omg please please don’t get her to send those videos. It will make life much harder for her. I’d urge her to gradually phase these people out of her life and look around for more open-minded friends. They sound like wankers. If she’s going to uni in a few years time, look around for places that have a radfem society and that way she can make contact with more sane people.

DS also has one best friend and several fellow students who are trans and non binary. He feels he has no choice but to go along with it and indeed, it is hard to see an alternative to going along with it. All he can do is not wear the pronoun badge, travel an enormous distance to the single sex male loo at uni and keep his gob firmly shut.

DS also says that he reckons about 75% at uni don't actually believe it.

I think - but what do I know - that it’s a valuable lesson for dealing with people who have ideas and beliefs that are dangerous/wrong/bonkers. There will be fashions and trends that people get swept up in (and bully others over) and this is life isn’t it? I always see things like this as life lessons on how to deal with jackasses...

If they friends are ones she wants to keep them she has to realise that this is like a religion (and the whole ‘be kind’ is ironic considering the bullying going on). If their attitude does become ‘say the words or we won’t be your friend’ then yes drop them like a hot brick.

I’d love to fast forward 20 years to see how many are living with hubby, 2 kids and a labrador in a house in the ‘burbs.

I was a bit concerned about DS (god, the speakers they have had in to school - and the sex Ed refers to ‘cis’ 🙄) but he (and his friends) see it for what it is. They don’t even pretend to be ‘cool’. There’s a trans kid in the school - must be 17/18 now - and it’s no big deal for the other students (they use their sex facilities and apparently is a ‘cool’ kid who just gets on with it and hasn’t joined any of the ‘societies’). But then our school isn’t stonewalled.

being compared to a racist by people who have known her for years has really upset her

I've had a falling out with friends about this as well as this is absolutely it. I knew we disagreed and was happy to just agree to disagree and get on with things. However, others felt differently when they realised I wasn't agreeing with them and apparently we can't all just coexist.

The thing that hurt the most was the implication that because I don't think twaw, that I am an absolute monster with thoughts that make people unsafe. The fact that they could put aside all they knew about me and think that none of that mattered, because I was a mean terf.

So I have removed myself from the social circle. 🤷🏻‍♀️

My teenage dd is firmly GC and often shares Blair White videos or Rose of Dawn with her pals. Even if I don't necessarily agree with all they say at least they show that there are differences of opinion amongst trans people and there is no one 'correct' way of looking at things.