Really irresponsible Guardian article today

[Vermeil]

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/31/years-denial-finally-accepted-trans-woman

This really irresponsible article has appeared in today’s Guardian. Why irresponsible? This-

‘ The waiting list for the NHS’s backlogged gender identity clinics frequently exceeds three years, leaving trans people with no choice but to funnel money into private medical services, so that we can finally start living as ourselves.

This summer I did exactly that. The scheduled hour-long consultation with a psychologist was over in 15 minutes. “I have what I need,” she said. “You know who you are.” Within 24 hours I received written confirmation that I met the criteria for gender dysphoria. A prescription for oestrogen and progesterone arrived at my door two days later.’

So, an article in a mainstream UK newspaper is basically promoting the idea that after just 15mins speaking to someone online who claims to be a psychologist, you can be given prescription CSH within 24hrs.
WTAF?

@Malahaha

If I could have pushed a button, in my youth, and get white skin and blonde hair, I would have. Ask a fat, plain person if they would push a button to become slim and beautiful -- most would. Ask a poor person if they would push a button to become a millionaire overnight -- most would. Ask a barren woman if she could press a button to become fertile -- I bet she would.

"If you could push a button" means nothing. Many if not most of us have totally unrealistic and unfulfillable desires.

Maybe it's a version of the miracle question used in solution focused therapy? It's a misapplication if so, as the question is designed to help clients imagine what a future would look like if their ideals were granted, and try to work on a way to achieve those goals with the tools available not pretend that there actually is a magic wand that can grant their wishes. Prescribing hormones on the back of the miracle question is as irresponsible as suggesting somebody pretend their dead loved one is still alive as a solution to missing them, or prescribing a boob job to someone who believes their goals would be achieved by having bigger tits. It's a way to try to uncover the underlying motives and missing links that a person is imagining could be met by the miracle being performed and trying to get to the same outcome whilst staying in reality.

After reading this article it suddenly struck me - what do trans people actually change about themselves apart from dressing up as their desired gender, and altering their bodies to various extents?
Is it commoon to start or stop particular hobbies or pastimes that are considered gendered? Do they change jobs, change what films they like to watch, music, books, how much domestic drudgery they do?
All those things that could be mythically assigned to one gender or another....or is it mostly about outward appearance?
I am probably being terribly naive and offensive with this question, but, I am interested to know.

Me too MagpiePi. I seem to share many hobbies and TV viewing habits with my husband. Does that make me a manly women?

From what I understand, there are no specific hobbies/behaviours/interests that denote a female or male gender identity.

It is just that one has a gender identity. This gender identity cannot be defined as such, and cannot be explained to someone who doesn't have one. It is like trying to explain colour to someone who is blind.

Despite being indefinable and unexplainable, gender identity can be determined within 15 minutes of consultation with a psychologist and a trans diagnosis can be swiftly treated with hormones such as oestrogen.

Although having a female identity definitely has nothing to do with stereotypical thoughts and behaviours, it just so happens that many mtf transitioners find themselves crying, trembling and painting their nails once they embrace their female gender identity.

This sounds sarcastic - I don't actually mean it to be. I'm just going by what we have been told by various TRAs over the last year or so.

I think mentioning the 15 min consultation is very good actually. It took my dentist longer than that to figure out why I had pain in a tooth.

....or maybe he's a womanly man?!
If only there was. definitive list somewhere telling us what our likes and dislikes should be and how we should all be living our lives. Or, radical thought...maybe we are all non-binary...?

If I could press a button and the world would see me as...

... thin
... a cat
... the owner of a beautifully put together and tended garden...

I'd do it like a shot.

should the NHS affirm that I 'really' am those things? Pay for treatment to bri g me closer to my fantasies?

I was struck by the casual mention of the relationship break-up.
There was a strong emphasis on the fact that the GF accepted Sophie without judgement.
But then said GF left. Oh well. Now I can be myself.

Totally self-centered.

Happy to have parents pay for their life but not be honest with them, and deceive them.

This kind of narcissism is sickening.

It's like dead name thing. They are so self entitled about their new persona they have no empathy for the parents who cherished them under their given name. Calling it a dead name is particularly harsh I think. Cruel. But they do not care about other people only themselves.

It does make you wonder Moths, about the parents POV. They’d have to be pretty disinterested, holed up together during lockdown, not to realise their child is struggling with their mental health whatever the cause.

A grown adult to pulling the ‘my parents don’t understand me’ schtick seems a bit silly.

@gardenbird48

It seems so strange that after a short conversation a person can be diagnosed with the serious condition of gender dysphoria.

Surely conditions like this that have such far reaching effects on a person’s life would take a bit more in depth discussion to diagnose? I have seen people with mental health problems be absolutely adamant that a particular issue is at the root of their problems in the moment of distress but then move away from that idea like it was never the case.

Surely more than one interview would be required to establish persistence? I only know a little bit about it but couldn’t a bipolar condition generate similar focus and strength of feeling?

Your forgetting the fact that this person has had to wait 3/4 years from the point of the GP agreeing to refer them (after no doubt already having gone down the anridepression route) to finally being seen by a counsellor trained in dealing with gender issues. The fact that in all that time their feelings haven't wavered is enough to indicate they aren't just experiencing a 'moment of distress' or currently immersed in a 4 year long bipolar episode. 3/4 years of waiting to be seen is a hell of a long time to keep up the pretence if your just doing it for shits and giggles and to get kicks out of accessing women's changing rooms.

I don't think anyone thinks it's a shits and giggles thing but there is clearly some sort of psychological phenomenon here that deserves to be properly evaluated.

I don't think anyone's suggesting they're pretending - in fact, pennylane could you expand a bit on what you see as the difference between someone, as you say, keeping up a pretence, and a genuine trans person?

The contradiction is between this narrative and the whole underlying justification for seld ID which largely is based on claims that it's a terrible administrative and overly medicalised burden.

twitter.com/danialwebb/status/1344573752605085696?s=21

The 'therapist' hired by gender GP is a grifter with no psychological training. Colour me surprised

A dishonest male wouldn’t have to actually wait 3-4 years before getting a diagnosis after 15 minutes. They would only have to say they’ve been waiting 3-4 years to get a diagnosis after 15 minutes.

@CodenameVillanelle

twitter.com/danialwebb/status/1344573752605085696?s=21

The 'therapist' hired by gender GP is a grifter with no psychological training. Colour me surprised

It would make sense. An online appt, someone who’s a “pathway advisor” rather than a therapist. Then a script arriving in the post. Is there anyone else who organises hormone treatment via the mail in the UK?

I don't think that there is anything you couldn't do or like in either " gender identity" I think it's more about how you are seen by others. Alone, by ourselves, we are just...us arnt we? I don't sit about feeling like a woman, but if I could push a button and be a man I probably would. Not because I like to look masculine (I'm all hair and tits and not at all butch) but because I have always been judged as a bit too bolshy, too opinionated, too strident, too much!
I reckon my personality would fit better in what other people expect from a man. And I would feel a lot less constrained by the thought of ageing ( look at all the 55 year old actors as compared to 55 year old actresses) I would be taken more seriously at work, I wouldn't feel guilty if I didn't care for my elderly parents until they die..
So maybe that's at the heart of it, not how you feel inside but how your are perceived in the world?

@IfNotNow12

I don't think that there is anything you couldn't do or like in either " gender identity" I think it's more about how you are seen by others. Alone, by ourselves, we are just...us arnt we? I don't sit about feeling like a woman, but if I could push a button and be a man I probably would. Not because I like to look masculine (I'm all hair and tits and not at all butch) but because I have always been judged as a bit too bolshy, too opinionated, too strident, too much! I reckon my personality would fit better in what other people expect from a man. And I would feel a lot less constrained by the thought of ageing ( look at all the 55 year old actors as compared to 55 year old actresses) I would be taken more seriously at work, I wouldn't feel guilty if I didn't care for my elderly parents until they die.. So maybe that's at the heart of it, not how you feel inside but how your are perceived in the world?

How you are perceived in the world is literally gender stereotypes and sexism. It's not an internal feeling of manness or womanness.

GenderGP offer hormones following a single 'information gathering session' which costs £65. That's the only barrier to them prescribing CSH to someone

And yes @terfinginthevoid - given that the author doesn't seem to know what hormones men who wish to transition are prescribed, it seems unlikely they've actually taken any

The fact that in all that time their feelings haven't wavered is enough to indicate they aren't just experiencing a 'moment of distress' or currently immersed in a 4 year long bipolar episode. 3/4 years of waiting to be seen is a hell of a long time to keep up the pretence if your just doing it for shits and giggles and to get kicks out of accessing women's changing rooms.

I don’t understand this.

What pretense is needed to be ‘kept up’? Yes, the wait time is too long, particularly without intensive mental health support. However, I don’t believe that if you were using the system to achieve access to vulnerable people that you would have to prove that in all that time you’d be expected to show you’d been living as the opposite sex in the meantime. It is to get a diagnosis not the actual GRC and there is no background check afaik.

And if you go straight to a private clinic, no wait time needed at all.

And I repeat. Anyone who needs access to a gender clinic should have it and in a timely manner. However, I think the ‘gotcha’ that it won’t be abused is lacking substance.

How you are perceived in the world is literally gender stereotypes and sexism. It's not an internal feeling of manness or womanness.
I know. I think that's pretty much what I said..isn't it??
The world is sexist, therefore I would have a better life as a man. Possibly this chap feels he would be treated more in accordance with how he wants to be treated if he was a woman. Not saying it's right, just not sure it's only about internal feelings, or even about them at all.

@pennylane83

According to the article Sophie appears to have only realised their true self at the beginning of 2020. There is no mention of Sophie waiting for four years. There is reference to the nhs waiting list being 3/4 yrs long but Sophie doesn’t appear to have waited for that and sought out a gender advisor for themselves.

It makes it sound like it was a matter of months from gp and antidepressants to gd diagnosis and hormone treatment.

You haven't read the article have you.

That's not the timeline at all.

My husband followed a similar path as the article writer. After a responsible clinician told him he was probably not trans, or that at least it would require more time/therapy, he Rocked on up to an “informed consent” clinic, was asked the button question, got hormones immediately. They talked about fertility but nothing about other possible consequences. The attitude was “well let’s see if it helps!”

Turns out he was depressed/anxious/abusing substances and looking for any solution. Hormones for 2 years didn’t do much for him except a lot of weight gain and during the period expressing a lot of sexist views about why his “feminine” interests and personality meant he was really a woman (he was on trans forums, I’m sure like article writer spending hours defending why he’s always been female etc).

Anyway, I guess we’ll see where we are at in 2 years for this person. Certainly being this public about it is going to make things harder to back away from. But the fact that many people are making this mistake certainly doesn’t make me think it’s a good time to get rid of female-only spaces and provisions.