Help Please - I need the impossible - a group friendly sum up of our current situation

[gardenbird48]

I wouldn't normally ask but I am seeing some friends tonight (in a covid appropriate way) and there is the possibility that one might chuck out a question 'so bird, what is all this stuff you've been posting on your facebook?'

I am rubbish at on the spot responses so I have been trying to work out what to say for days now. I had a disastrous conversation with some of the people who will be present some time ago so I know there will be an intake of breath and they will be praying for me to not ruin the evening.

If anyone is interested enough to ask me in front of the group, I just want to give a quick one-line (haha) that would enable me to offer to send them some info and then smoothly move on and say something along the lines of 'this is a huge conversation for another time'.

The question is - should I break it down to something that could directly affect them ie. allowing self-id males into hospital wards or be more general but risk them thinking I've gone bonkers over lockdown and have got into conspiracy theories because really the scale of this thing really does sound unbelievable until you start seeing things happening in real time.

Help please.

Could you say something about the Keira Bell case?

More neutral, less risk of seeming conspiracy-theorist and tends to garner more understanding from people not totally immersed in gender ideology.

A quick one liner response that invites more questions might work.

"Oh there's so much going on you wouldn't believe it, you barely hear about it in the papers, it's all so worrying..."

Then if the person bites I'd start with changing the meaning of words and go into free speech and give examples that they can look at themselves such as Kate Scottow, Declan Armstrong, then you can go onto no platforming etc. Depends on whether they sound interested. Schools is also a great start as most people want kids to be ok.

I got my Dad onto this via prisons and hospital wards but that isn't the 'gentle approach'.

Those are my thoughts anyway.

Yes, I agree with OhHolyJesus.

For words and meaning changing you could start with public bodies in Scotland needing you be 50:50 split but the aim is to have the women category include men and all women shortlists and you could name Midral Wadha...that will be a nice segue into women only spaces....

"Oh there's so much going on you wouldn't believe it, you barely hear about it in the papers, it's all so worrying..."

Hm, that has a 'bonkers conspiracy theory' vibe to me.

Hard to answer without knowing what in particular you've been posting on Facebook.

"The Keira Bell case is mind blowing and going to have serious safeguarding repercussions throughout all children's services and eduction, have a read I couldn't believe it."

Well it kind of comes down to Keira and adult men in changing rooms showering with teenage girls. And do you think this is a good thing?

I think I'd stay away from loos and changing rooms - too much scope for tedious NAMALT-ing and suchlike. The Keira Bell case and sport (eg the findings that lead to the world rugby decision) may be less slippery ground.

Rather than you answering lots of questions - why don't you pose the questions? Give them a few facts and then ask them questions like

Do you think single sex spaces matter?
Should my elderly mum (for example) be able to ask for a female carer for personal care and expect a woman?
Did you know that 15 year olds boys can outperform trained female athletes?

Etc etc

I agree with Errol. Additionally, a route into biological sex is the "chest feeding" stuff. Whereby women who can't or don't want to (cos we're not mere vessels but we are) breastfeed, have a torrid time of it. And where powdered milk is poison and you're causing untold damage to your child who will never bond with you and grow up to be a terrible human. But males taking god knows what to "feed" a newborn? Totally fine and nothing could go wrong!!

If anyone brings up JKR, first thing to do is to check they actually read what she wrote, and what exactly in it they find problematic.

I think most people truely believe that when we talk about Trans people we mean people who have 'fully transitioned' through surgery. It shocks people when you say that about 90% of trans 'women' are fully intact with a fully functioning penis.

I would start there. Then go onto prisons. This us what shocks people the most,

Just have a few names of sex offender trans prisoners to hand.

Yes ask them to quote an actual quote from JkR's essay. Not an opinion of another's, an actual quote. No-one can because the transphobia doesn't exist.

Ask them if they believe Gay and Bi are transphobic and bigoted for being same-sex attracted? That stumps some people.

If anyone is interested enough to ask me in front of the group, I just want to give a quick one-line (haha) that would enable me to offer to send them some info and then smoothly move on and say something along the lines of 'this is a huge conversation for another time'

So as neutral as possible **:

"It's about the unresolved conflicts between the legal, sex-based rights of women, and the legal rights of transgender people (transwomen in particular)."

** For the record, I don't think this is a neutral issue with "equal blame on both sides."

So a more feminist answer might be:

"This is about protecting the legal sex-based rights of women."

You could go on to explain that the conflict was brought to its current nastinesses by the imposition of two slogans, as if they were arguments: "Transwomen are women" and "NoDebate"

Good luck! You are fighting the good fight

I always think of the BBC article that said there were 600 rapes of girls in UK schools in 3 years. That’s the reported ones! Schools only open 190 days a year so that’s more than one a day. What will happen if toilets aren’t single sex anymore? Will this figure go up or down? And when Eddie Izzard got upset for being called out by some 13-14 year old girls for chasing him out the loos and then he turned round and felt so empowered because ‘But I didn’t scream and run — in the end, they did.’ But he gets the ‘brave’ accolades from Stonewall who have altered the equality act wording and been ‘so helpful’ in wording equality policy templates for schools so that gender not sex is protected (go check your child’s own school).
Discuss....

Sorry that is definitely not a one-liner!
Perhaps: Men like Eddie Izzard don’t get it so we need to put facts out to educate them.

If someone asks I would say something along the same lines as you: "It's a huge topic for another time but I am so pleased and relieved that children will no longer be routinely given experimental puberty blockers. Well done to Keira Bell," and raise your glass to her!

If they ask questions, fine. If they don't, also fine. Personally, I wouldn't go too much into it, keep it focused on children and puberty blockers and GIDS and then you move on.

@ErrolTheDragon

If anyone brings up JKR, first thing to do is to check they actually read what she wrote, and what exactly in it they find problematic.

Absolutely this. You find they've not actually read it.

thank very much all, that's a super helpful set of responses - some really great things to think about - I'm going to be in the car for a bit now so will digest and cogitate )¬))

I'll let you know how I get on :¬)))

Two words - Eddie Izzard. He is now she. So clear.

Also 4000% increase in teenage girls referred to specialist clinic - and those are the ones that are actually referred. There are thousands upon thousands who have 'just' transitioned socially.

Also as mentioned above, 90% TW retain their penis. Figures are useful.

Two completely different cohorts - teenage girls and middle-aged men (although from what I see of the cesspit that is Twitter there seem to be thousands of anime-avatared people with girl dicks)

Now I have to put my head in my hands ☹️

If they start to argue the plight of the 'very marginalised groups of TW' use theoretical examples of Transmen and lesbians, if that makes sense.

They can get into a track of be kind to TW.

This usually completely ignores TM. If you apply similar logic you find it doesn't work as they can still be victims of rape, need access to excellent reproductive healthcare and still seem to carry the stereotypical mental loads of women, be affected by patriarchy and be subjected to misogyny.

Obviously lesbianism speaks for itself.

I know this matters to you as it does me, but since this is our Christmas party I plead the 5th.

Well it kind of comes down to Keira and adult men in changing rooms showering with teenage girls. And do you think this is a good thing?

I suppose you could get quite philosophical and say that a tiny minority of men want to change the fundamental meaning of the word "woman" and redefine what it is to be a woman.

I try not to think about this aspect too much, because it is the fundamental fascism of this move (redefining what it is to be a woman) which makes me splutteringly angry.

Or you could show them pictures of:
Alex Drummond
"Karen" White
Jonathan Yaniv
Daniela ??? can't remember the name - the US transwoman with male pattern baldness, who celebrated International Women's Day by Tweeting something about "if you don't think I'm a woman, you can suck my female dick"

And so on ....

"Should transmen go to male prisons? Why not?"

go into free speech and give examples that they can look at themselves such as Kate Scottow

Whilst being extremely rude should never have resulted in a criminal case I don't think citing someone who thinks it was acceptable to call Hayden a pig in a wig is going to help your case.