Help Please - I need the impossible - a group friendly sum up of our current situation

[gardenbird48]

I wouldn't normally ask but I am seeing some friends tonight (in a covid appropriate way) and there is the possibility that one might chuck out a question 'so bird, what is all this stuff you've been posting on your facebook?'

I am rubbish at on the spot responses so I have been trying to work out what to say for days now. I had a disastrous conversation with some of the people who will be present some time ago so I know there will be an intake of breath and they will be praying for me to not ruin the evening.

If anyone is interested enough to ask me in front of the group, I just want to give a quick one-line (haha) that would enable me to offer to send them some info and then smoothly move on and say something along the lines of 'this is a huge conversation for another time'.

The question is - should I break it down to something that could directly affect them ie. allowing self-id males into hospital wards or be more general but risk them thinking I've gone bonkers over lockdown and have got into conspiracy theories because really the scale of this thing really does sound unbelievable until you start seeing things happening in real time.

Help please.

I think for me, a one sentence sum up is "I believe there are biological differences between men and women, and apparently that's controversial." 🤷🏻‍♀️

@mummmy2017

I know this matters to you as it does me, but since this is our Christmas party I plead the 5th.

Perfect 👌

“Sometimes gender identity matters and sometimes biological sex matters, and I’m really worried that in the rush to avoid being transphobic we are forgetting about the times that it’s biological sex that matters - stuff like women’s prisons being occupied by transwomen without surgery, women’s sports being open to biological men, violent crime reporting and statistics being distorted because males get recorded as women, that type of thing”

"I don't believe any male - eg Eddie izzard - is female. So I don't think he should be in women's single sex spaces. You might disagree" shrug and change the subject.

EI is doing our work for us IMO

Actually I’d probably neutralise the list to “stuff like women’s prisons, women’s sport, statistics like crime reports that drive policy decisions, that type of thing”

(And have some follow up ready in case you are met with biological sex being imaginary or a spectrum.)

Everyone has a story to tell if they chose to, saying TWAW silences trans women like Debbie Hayton who do not agree with TWAW. Everyone deserves to be heard.

What about mentioning the fully intact, non gender dysphoric but self IDed GRC holding inmate in the women’s prison, who has professed their desire to rape women? Go into prison for not being able to pay your TV license, come out a rape victim

Probably depends on the audience. Would men in womens sport be waved away or discussed further. I know some people who would not care, because they aren't bothered about sports, but then if told about hospital wardswould be horrified.

Are they a lot of new mums and the breastfeeding that women are castigated for not doing but men are lauded for example would bring on the horror?

If anyone at all says that your own toilet at home is mixed sex, the answer is a truly astonished reply of "you just open your door to literally anyone on the street. Wow.

I think for me, a one sentence sum up is "I believe there are biological differences between men and women, and apparently that's controversial."

That is brilliant, @HoneysuckIejasmine I'm pinching that one. Thank you

Keeping it topical you could say something like:

Things are so bad that there are people who seriously believe that Eddie Izzard is now a girl.

Do you?

OP - if you get to use my suggestion please, please let us know if anyone actually agrees he is now a girl. Can't wait..

Appropriation and erasure in language.

An adult male stating that they want to be called she/her is a ‘woman’ but a woman in labour is a ‘birthing person’.

Lipstick counts but doing exactly what differentiates a woman’s body from a man’s body - that doesn’t count - and she is erased away - all in the name of progress.

Should Nicola Adam’s fight Tyson Fury/Anthony Joshua? If not, why not?

Do you think a leading women’s cyclist who happily and publicly states that women should die in a grease pan fire was born male or female?

I say I don't believe humans can change sex. Because that's fundamental

Focus on transitioning of children, many who are gay and autistic. Focus on women’s sports. It’s harder for people to scream that you are a bigot and la la la fingers in ears on these two issues. AGP trans women in prisons and changing rooms is a huge issue but too difficult to get into too soon as the issues cross fetishes, free speech and a million other things.

I'd lead with something they may have seen in mainstream media.
Newsnight reports on Tavi whistle-blowers, Keira Bell case, JKR'sxessay and response.

Oh or sports if they're into sport. World Rugby deciding TW playing with women wasn't safe, UK organisations continuing to allow it, that was a shocker and most people get it.

At the beginning of June 2020, I had no idea that I was going to be radicalised by the end of the year by a tweet by JK Rowling. The three main issues for me are: biological sex is immutable, the dangers of self ID, and that the vast majority of transwomen do not have surgery.

So I'd rest my case with Eddie Izzard...

I’ve also read about groups/forums talking about women’s problems being attacked and closed down because TW felt excluded, also wasn’t there a feminist march where women were told they weren’t allowed to march/have certain signs? I found that extremely problematic when I first found out about all this

I don't know of it will be the right angle but the overarching point is:

There are 2 things - sex, and gender identity. Sex we all understand. We divide some things by sex (sport, prisons, being allowed to ask for a female nurse to do your smear). Gender identity is when someone has a feeling of being male or female, but this doesn't necessarily match the sex of their body. So we (as a society) try to treat some people as if they are the opposite sex, because it's helpful to them.

There are currently efforts to replace sex with gender identity in all circumstances. It's happening in all areas of policy (including sport, prisons etc). It will mean things that have generally been divided by sex will be divided by subjective identity - this feeling. Male people don't have to change their body to be treated as if female in all these areas of policy.

All the professionals & institutions who should have thought about how that will effect other people (eg female prisoners) have let this happen, and so it is being challenged in various court cases by very brave women.

also wasn’t there a feminist march where women were told they weren’t allowed to march/have certain signs? I found that extremely problematic when I first found out about all this

Yes, it was Munroe Bergdorf.

I would start with the Kiera Bell case and maybe sport (Rugby) as both cases have analysed the evidence and it's less subjective.

I think I would start with the shocking lack of evidence from the tavistock presented in court.

People are being told same-sex attraction is wrong, and is transphobic.

Plead the 5th.

The chances are you won't find any sense. Once ideologically captured (this happens largely at an emotional level) any spurious 'logic' or justifications may follow...

They may claim there's no problem housing men in women's prisons for example. If they claim to believe this - there's nothing you can do.

Or here’s another one, that might make it more real for them, as things often do when it affects them directly - go to hospital (you, your granny, your daughter), end up with a sex offender in the next bed
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4114228-Attention-Women-in-Devon