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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Change in focus in equality policy...

141 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/12/2020 23:20

Lucy Fisher @LOS_Fisher
EXCL: Gvt has focused too heavily on “fashionable” race, sexuality & gender issues at expense of poverty & geographical disparities, Liz Truss will say tomo.

Overhaul of equalities policy will see pivot away from quotas, targets, unconscious bias training & diversity statements

In major policy reset speech, Truss will hit out at “identity politics, loud lobby groups & the idea of lived experience” in debate about a fairer society.

She will unveil new approach to equalities based on “freedom, choice, opportunity, & individual humanity & dignity”.

New equalities policy will seek to dovetail with PM’s “levelling up” agenda

Gvt will:
• look to move Equalities Hub from capital to the North
• launch equalities data project
• move Social Mobility Commission into Government Equalities Office

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/12/16/pivot-fashionable-race-sexuality-gender-issues-focus-poverty/
Pivot from 'fashionable' race, sexuality and gender issues to focus on poverty in equalities overhaul
Liz Truss hit out at identity politics and unconscious bias training, saying her policy reset will instead look at geographic disparities

Trying to think about down sides to this. Focusing on poverty is a key thing for women and the BAME community anyway.

It strikes me as occupying a space that Labour should be, given their roots and history.

This is definitely culture war related, but its also a sensible move, because it is an approach that is needed in many respects.

OP posts:
stumbledin · 18/12/2020 16:51

Diane Abbott:

there is a whole section in her speech devoted to geographic inequality. She talks meaningfully about places “beyond the South East” and name-checks Wolverhampton and Darlington. Obviously politicians talking about regional inequality is commendable. But the framing of the Truss speech makes it clear that she thinks that equalities is a zero-sum game and that supporting the victims of racial injustice is somehow in opposition to supporting communities in the north of England. This is dog whistle racism designed to appeal to voters in so-called Red Wall seats.

Truss and her Tory colleagues obviously think that stoking racial resentment worked for Donald Trump in attracting millions of white voters in post-industrial America who had traditionally voted Democrat. So they think that it can work for them in holding on to white voters who have historically voted Labour in places like Wolverhampton.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/liz-truss-speech-fashionable-inequality-race-gender-b1776106.html

HecatesCatsInXmasHats · 18/12/2020 17:05

That's a very provocative statement from Diane Abbot, does she really think the way to win hearts and minds back in Red Wall seats is to effectively accuse voters there of being a bunch of racists? You can't help people if they won't vote for you and they won't vote for you if you're contemptuous of them.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/12/2020 17:07

It's a mistake Labour have consistently made.

Thelnebriati · 18/12/2020 17:11

The original version of her speech has been archived;

archive.is/5p4wc

HecatesCatsInXmasHats · 18/12/2020 17:15

@Ereshkigalangcleg

It's a mistake Labour have consistently made.
Yes, shades of Thornberry. You'd think seeing those seats tumble would have brought an end to this sort of rhetoric.
SirSamuelVimes · 18/12/2020 17:23

Jeez, the arrogance and contempt from Abbott there is appalling.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/12/2020 18:00

The original version of her speech has been archived;

They still missed out the bit about single "sex spaces women had fought for," so it was never "exactly as delivered" on the gov website.

Guido Fawkes and others have an exact transcript.

MichelleofzeResistance · 18/12/2020 18:04

Its ingrained in labour. Seen on the day when Gordon Brown made the mistake of leaving his microphone on in the car and was recorded calling an elderly lady a bigot for not sharing his views on immigration. He and Mandelson never managed to undo that flash of insight.

SJWs do believe that anyone who does not share their views is beneath contempt. It's not hard to find comments like Mandelson's 'post democratic era' ones, that suggest they do not feel these people should really have a vote (because they vote wrong) and prove now in statements and actions they don't believe such people should have equal access to fairness, the law, equal consideration or even civil right of representation as Amnesty recently stated.

This is the reality of this political class. They thankfully will never get into power while holding those views, because they are incapable of realising that when you alienate and piss off the massive majority of the electorate you will never get voted in.

RozWatching · 18/12/2020 18:19

Yes, Abbott's comment is provocative and arrogant (and stupid) but so were bits of Truss's speech. It's hilarious that she is trying to blame Labour for things that have happened in the last 10 years under god knows how many Conservative ministers for equality.
Her predecessor Penny Mordaunt was quite convinced that something had to be done to help "non-binary" people, and to this day Maria Miller can't understand why feminists don't see a long-haired male person in a nice twinset as a woman.

On the other stuff, yes, agree with pp re concerns about where this is going. I am mostly just sick and tired of these people and their games, and the lack of grown-up politics on both sides.

HecatesCatsInXmasHats · 18/12/2020 18:31

I am mostly just sick and tired of these people and their games, and the lack of grown-up politics on both sides.

Same. Perpetually seeking a reason to vote Labour again, repeatedly disappointed by their offering.

ChestnutStuffing · 18/12/2020 19:43

@QuentinWinters

OK silly you need to spend some time arguing with MRAs on here about whether there is a gender pay gap, or whether men are bigger victims of domestic abuse than women. Data is useful but there are lies, damn lies and statistics. At the end if the day, a lot of discrimination can be framed as a "choice" (e.g. working class people choose to leave education so aren't as qualified so won't get the good jobs). Data doesn't help identify the reasons why people choose what they do. Qualitative analysis does.

I think the Torys are rubbing their hands in glee at the opportunity to get rid of the pesky Equal Opportunities act

But there needs to be real discussion about things like the pay gap. The assumption that we should be engaging in social engineering to make sure women and men make identical choices with career or work, so they have identical outcomes, hasn't been particularly effective, and it hasn't satisfied a lot of women either.

The disinclination to discuss that kind of thing, in a lot of different areas, has been a huge part of what has created this kind of criticism and what makes it difficult for the LP, or progressives, to refute.

20mum · 18/12/2020 19:56

The enforcement of the Equalities law should never be the task of the victims, and the attention and effort devoted to it should be balanced to the protected groups most neglected and most in need.
Sir Trevor Phillips observed that Disablism is "universally practiced, institutionalised, accepted by the public, and invisible, and in it's effect on people's lives, is in many ways worse than Racism."

He might well have said the same about Ageism.
Open Age Hatred is commonplace. 7.2 million old people are [known to be] abused each year.

Action on Elder Abuse (now known as Hourglass) surveyed two and a half thousand people in January, repeating the work in June, and confirming a widespread attitude of 'dehumanising of older people' among the general public. 16% of all older people in a year are victims of abuse.

A third (34%) of the public believe 'Acts of domestic violence directed towards an older person' does not constitute abuse. ('Growing Old in the U.K')

49% (later 53%) believed 'not attending in a timely manner to an older person's needs' is abuse. (For helpless older people this would mean assisting to bed, providing food, permitting access to essential medication, allowing toileting or heating or fluid).

Attitudes to what 'counts' as abuse fuel the crisis. (30% of the public 'don't see D.A. towards old people as abuse'. 'This is the same for pushing, hitting, or beating an older person'.

[ evidence anyone can see is : The attitude shown in Mrs Browns boys, where the old man is derided and ordered onto the floor to be used as a step ladder for Mrs Brown to reach the Christmas tree, or for his back to be used as an improvised ironing board, with hilarity from the audience when 'she' forgets the iron till it burns clear through the shirt. Similar evidence was the total lack of protest about One Man Two Guvnors, which 'hilariously' mocked the elderly waiter, frequently hurled downstairs, against walls, and finally attacked with a cricket bat till rendered unconscious or dead on the floor. Would this have been so hilarious if the actor had blacked up instead of aged up?
Would James Corden have agreed to appear in it? Would anyone stage it? Would anyone dare write it?]

N O representative for Older People sat on the recent government Hidden Harms Summit.

B O TH sides of the House firmly refused even to mention older people in debating the Domestic Abuse Bill.

The You are Not Alone initiative simply ignored the existence of both Disabled and Older people, for whom simply leaving an abusive home is completely impossible. There is absolutely nowhere to go for those with care and support needs (nor those needing to shield from Covid19)

Isolated and disabled or old people must frequently accept abuse, from neighbours, carers, relatives and anyone who wishes, because they cannot escape. (33% of the public see nothing wrong in simply taking any small objects they wish from old people) The Public Guardian for Scotland points out "assent vs consent" arises when people are unable to maintain 'boundaries', because the victim is scared, but dependent. There is no realistic alternative to accepting abuse, regardless of mental capacity.

There is an extra risk for disabled or older people for 'romance fraud' for 'grooming', 'predatory marriage' for assets and immigration, for undue influence and coercion to influence a will. Capacity is variable from day to day in many conditions, and does not exclusively involve old people (50,000 under 65 have dementia, and there are many other situations of illness or disability where people need the protection of law, but in theory should go to court alone to enforce law, while others can get Equality lawyers free, but only for Race equality, not for any of the other, less equal, equalities)

Thelnebriati · 19/12/2020 13:58

But there needs to be real discussion about things like the pay gap. The assumption that we should be engaging in social engineering to make sure women and men make identical choices with career or work, so they have identical outcomes, hasn't been particularly effective, and it hasn't satisfied a lot of women either.

There is a massive blind spot that ignores the reality of life for disadvantaged groups such as women, lone parents and disabled people.
Inequality is built into the system, and if you can't see it you can't fix it. That's one reason social engineering has been ineffective, it has paid lip service but hasn't tackled structural inequality.

ChestnutStuffing · 19/12/2020 22:48

@Thelnebriati

But there needs to be real discussion about things like the pay gap. The assumption that we should be engaging in social engineering to make sure women and men make identical choices with career or work, so they have identical outcomes, hasn't been particularly effective, and it hasn't satisfied a lot of women either.

There is a massive blind spot that ignores the reality of life for disadvantaged groups such as women, lone parents and disabled people.
Inequality is built into the system, and if you can't see it you can't fix it. That's one reason social engineering has been ineffective, it has paid lip service but hasn't tackled structural inequality.

And there are huge divides among women themselves about the very nature of the problem, about what they would see as the ideal outcome, or a realistic outcome.

Trying to limit the discussion hasn't been a good look for groups like the LP on this any more than in any other area.

Angryresister · 19/12/2020 23:49

So does this mean that eg the situation in Manchester where 80000 crimes mostly against women and girls were ignored by the police force will carry on being ignored? On which side will this fall?

Cailleach1 · 20/12/2020 21:45

@sashagabadon

Yes as a general rule (smaller state, more pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps sort of thing, lower taxes) compared to Labour ( bigger state, more government intervention as a positive thing, higher taxes) but I would also think the Conservatives in the U.K. are actually to the left of the US democrats on many things - supporting state provided healthcare the obvious example. Imo Boris is a liberal really and no politicians here of any persuasion do God Grin
Yes, there are political parties in the UK which do God big time.The Democratic Unionist Party do God. Old style. Remember Iris Robinson in Hansard saying that There can be no viler act, apart from homosexuality and sodomy, than sexually abusing children . She kind of rolled back after. Just ever so slightly.

Creationism as well. They pushed hard for the 'Creationist' story at the Giants Causeway to be put alongside the scientific explanation.

www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jul/05/national-trust-creationism-giants-causeway

www.theguardian.com/politics/2008/jul/22/northernireland.gayrights

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