What is womanly? What is manly?

[JellySlice]

The attributes and behaviours which we describe as womanly or as manly are all generally positive things that both women and men can have/do, without diminishing their femininity or their masculinity.

So why is it that the terms womanly and manly are negative when applied to the other sex? Then they seem to have completely different meanings.

I'm struggling to think of any occasion I've described anyone as womanly or manly.

Like "The Womanly Art of Breastfeeding?"

I'm not sure I would agree with your premise that every characteristic that someone might think of as manly or womanly is negative when applied to the other sex. Some are but not all.

Not the characteristics, the adjective itself. 'A manly woman', for example.

The term would be A masculine woman, haven't got a clue what you're talking about

Are we in "throwing like a girl" territory?

in general in literature for example, masculine women are treated with more approval than feminine men. I'm thinking of Connie Sachs in Tinker Tailer Soldier Spy, or Jo March.

feminine men tend to be seen as a bit sinister - like Cedric in Love in a Cold Climate.

anyway

yes humans are often not particularly tolerant of people who are different - what's your point?

Well, it is all predicated on sexist stereotypes, isn’t it.
Womanly = weak, dim, frivolous, overemotional, into fashion and babies
Manly = rugged, aggressive, high earning, emotionally repressed, domestically useless.
Poisonous nonsense that has held both sexes (but overwhelmingly women) back from achieving their full potential.

It's just short codes for sex role stereotypes, and staying within them.

Never met a manly woman or a womanly man. Do you mean masculine and feminine? Surely that is to do with stereotypes?

(This reminds me of the white male privilege thread)?

I'm thinking of <a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connie_Sachs" target="_blank">Connie Sachss* in Tinker Tailer Soldier Spy...

Also..

That Connie in Spooks was a monster! What is it about that name?

It's just short codes for sex role stereotypes, and staying within them.

Very much this

Male = active
Female = passive

Damaging to both

Marian Harcombe in The Woman in White is an 'unattractive' woman with a moustache — but she's the strong, intelligent, reliable heroine of the story. There's a long tradition of difficult, 'manly'* women in literature and drama. Katherina in The Taming of the Shrew is a good example of a woman with a brain who understands the way the word works and says so. Both she and Marian are held up for comparison with traditional dependent, romantic 'womanly' women.

• I don't have any issue with calling a woman 'manly' in the traditional context of 'manly' meaning intelligent, capable, independent, self-determining and 'womanly' meaning nurturing, romantic, dedicated and dependent. Obviously what I'd really like to see is all sex stereotyping disappear from language completely, but feminists have been trying to expand the idea of what it is to be a woman for my entire life — and look where we are!

Yes, it's odd isn't it? Maybe it's another attempt to keep reinforcing gender boxes.

No, I'm not thinking about feminine and masculine, nor about passive stereotypes and powerful stereotypes.

It's about attributes that are seen positively in both women and men.

A skinny, camp, gay man might not be described as masculine, because he doesn't tick the stereotypes of masculinity. But on the bitterly cold winter day when we stopped to help a cyclist who had been knocked down by a car, and my skinny, camp, gay friend covered the cyclist with his coat, and crouched in shirt sleeves next to him until the paramedics arrived, giving no indication that he was cold, not even a dramatic sigh of relief when he put his coat back on, he would certainly have been described as manly.

'Manly' implies a man behaving in a positive way, regardless of his appearance, mannerisms or sexuality.

'Womanly' is more complicated, because it encompasses both the positive behaviours and some feminine stereotypes that make others feel comfortable.

But manly applied to a woman implies unwomanly, and womanly applied to a man implies unmanly - yet both describe positive attributes.

and my skinny, camp, gay friend covered the cyclist with his coat, and crouched in shirt sleeves next to him until the paramedics arrived, giving no indication that he was cold, not even a dramatic sigh of relief when he put his coat back on, he would certainly have been described as manly

Really? No disrespect to your friend but not in a million years would it occur to me to describe him or what he did as "manly"

"Kind", "thoughtful" "quick- thinking" "good in an emergency"

Manly and womanly are not terms that are used often enough to really carry a great deal of meaning.

Femininity men is not always seen as negative. Male pop stars and actors are often feminine. The male Romantic poets were feminine.

Generally people like men and women who come across as balanced and human, not extreme stereotypes.

Agree, I wouldn't describe that as 'manly' behaviour. I think it's impossible to separate what people perceive to be 'manly' from stereotypes.

"Kind", "thoughtful" "quick- thinking" "good in an emergency"

To me they are definitely manly! And womanly, for that matter.

I'm realising that my personal status is probably relevant: although I have lived mostly in the UK since I was 3, English is not my mother tongue. I suppose I may be being influenced by other linguistic concepts.

To me they are definitely manly! And womanly, for that matter.

Well indeed. Therefore the behaviour is not best described using either.

Back in the days when feminine and masculine were more likely to refer to the gender of nouns, womanly and manly were more applicable to people. They’re quite nice words. I wouldn’t object to being described as womanly, as I do womaning quite well, despite having a degree in Maths, being generally fit and sporty and having done male dominated, heavy, physical work for some years when younger.

@JellySlice

"Kind", "thoughtful" "quick- thinking" "good in an emergency"

To me they are definitely manly! And womanly, for that matter.

I'm realising that my personal status is probably relevant: although I have lived mostly in the UK since I was 3, English is not my mother tongue. I suppose I may be being influenced by other linguistic concepts.

I'm British (with poor French and German) I'm completely struggling to work out what linguistic concepts make you think "manly" is the go to adjective to describe what your friend did.

I'm sorry, but I really don't understand what you are trying to say here.

"Kind", "thoughtful" "quick- thinking" "good in an emergency"

To me they are definitely manly! And womanly, for that matter

@borntobequiet

Back in the days when feminine and masculine were more likely to refer to the gender of nouns, womanly and manly were more applicable to people. They’re quite nice words. I wouldn’t object to being described as womanly, as I do womaning quite well, despite having a degree in Maths, being generally fit and sporty and having done male dominated, heavy, physical work for some years when younger.

Equally I have no idea what point you are making either. What is "womanly" supposed to mean in this context?

Equally I have no idea what point you are making either. What is "womanly" supposed to mean in this context?

Being a woman. Don’t fret about it, as it’s of no particular consequence, other than I don’t mind it.

I think you're right that there may be an element of non-mother-tongue interference here. In particular I don't really get your differentiation between manly and masculine, or between womanly and feminine. I think they describe the same things, but manly/womanly is less used and maybe a bit more old-fashioned.

I've never heard anyone describe a woman as manly, or a man as womanly - I think masculine or feminine (or even effeminate) would be more commonly used to describe someone having attributes of the opposite sex.

I'm also baffled that you say you think being 'kind', 'thoughtful' and 'quick-thinking' are manly traits. I don't think they are even slightly more applicable to men than womem.