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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What is womanly? What is manly?

66 replies

JellySlice · 13/12/2020 00:13

The attributes and behaviours which we describe as womanly or as manly are all generally positive things that both women and men can have/do, without diminishing their femininity or their masculinity.

So why is it that the terms womanly and manly are negative when applied to the other sex? Then they seem to have completely different meanings.

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 13/12/2020 16:15

Perhaps the op is thinking of the concepts 'womanly virtues' and 'manly virtues'? I think those are somewhat distinct concepts from femininity and masculinity, though not something I've really thought about.

The etymology of virtue is itself perhaps problematic: The ancient Romans used the Latin word virtuss^ (derived from vir, their word for man) to refer to all of the "excellent qualities of men, including physical strength, valorous conduct, and moral rectitude.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 13/12/2020 16:28

I wouldn’t object to being described as womanly, as I do womaning quite well, despite having a degree in Maths, being generally fit and sporty

me too! I rather like 'womanly' as a word, I take it to mean 'reasonably grown up / capable / responsible'.

i suppose i'd take into account the age of the person using the word - i'd expect them to be middle aged or older

Icantreachthepretzels · 13/12/2020 16:31

Genuinely don't understand why people are pretending not to understand what 'womanly' and 'manly ' mean, or why if they were given a load of personality traits to organise according to how society sees women and men they wouldn't full well know which attributes to put in which category. And yes, OP is right telling a man he was 'womanly' would be insulting, as would telling a woman she is 'manly'.

I think manly is a more common used term than womanly - as in manly men. Yes the word 'masculine' could also be used but outside of this thread I've never seen anyone pretend not to understand what 'manly' is and in the real world and general conversation I bet more people would say 'he's very manly' rather than 'he's very masculine'.

Womanly and feminine are more different than manly and masculine, I think. Whereas 'manly' is used to mean rugged, chopping wood, fixing cars etc (masculine pursuits) 'womanly' tends to be more used as a physical descriptor 'a womanly figure' - hips and boobs, very fertile looking as opposed to a 'boyish' figure.
I think the female equivalent of 'manly' is 'girly'.

And I think there's a lot to unpack in the fact that whereas manly can cover a whole range of behaviours and actions, womanly is more limited to her body - and when it comes to the descriptor of 'feminine' behaviours and actions we default to the word for a female child instead of an adult. Manly men and girly girls.
We limit a woman to a judgement on what she looks like - if she is adult enough to bear children - and infantilise her actions.

But the reason being 'manly' as a woman or 'womanly' as a man is considered bad - when to be a womanly woman and a manly man is good - is just society's need to keep everyone firmly in their little box.

Of course a woman with 'manly' attributes (such as all the literary heroines mentioned upthread) might be treated with respect for their brains - because 'manly' is better than 'womanly' so she is acting up. She is dangerous because she is transgressing boundaries but she is at least better than everyone else of her sex. Whereas a man acting 'womanly' is degrading himself by acting like the weaker, stupider sex.

It's interesting that those literary heroines are specifically unattractive - as if by transgressing the boundaries of behaviour they are made monstrous. Jo is given suitors despite being plain, Marian is definitely not. Jo was written by a woman though and Marian a man - perhaps Louisa May Alcott thought that just because a woman was plain and headstrong it did not make her unloveable, whereas Wilkie Collins could not conceive of such a notion. Marian is respected for her male attributes, but she cannot be loved or desired.

Being called 'manly' as a woman is an insult, despite manly being higher up the hierarchy, because it means things like strong and aggressive and rough and course, and we live in a society were women are primarily valued for their beauty. To call a woman 'manly' is to call her not beautiful and that diminishes her worth - hence why Walter very much enjoys Marian's company but would never consider marrying her. He wants his wife - his woman - to be pretty not clever.

To call a man 'womanly' or 'girly' is an insult because it takes him out of his place in the pecking order and degrades him to the lower category. He is now with the support humans are only good for nurturing, cooking and fucking. The important stuff that makes the world goes round is achieved by the manly men, and requires manly attributes to do it - the attributes little women are incapable of. To call a man a woman is to make him unhuman.

of course this is all very outdated and we all know on an intellectual level that it is a nonsense, that a man can be nurturing and that nurturing is important and that women can have brilliant minds or are capable of chopping down trees and that's all great too. But knowing and believing are two different animals. Some things just run too deep for facts to get in the way and the words 'manly' and 'womanly/ girly' still hold their sway with a large percentage of the population.

Defaultname · 13/12/2020 16:59

Criteria differ between cultures, and over time, making it difficult to define gender-behaviours.

'Feminine Women, Masculine Men'' a song from 1926.

DidoLamenting · 13/12/2020 17:02

Genuinely don't understand why people are pretending not to understand what 'womanly' and 'manly ' mean

I am not pretending. I don't understand what point the OP is trying to make. Her example of her friend being good in an emergency shed no light whatsoever.

I can't think of any circumstances I would use "manly" or "womanly" or have even heard them used other than physical appearance. Tom Hardy is a very manly man and the late Barbara Windsor was a very womanly woman.

Goodness only knows what the correlation of being good at maths is to being or not being "womanly".

DidoLamenting · 13/12/2020 17:05

I wouldn’t object to being described as womanly, as I do womaning quite well, despite having a degree in Maths, being generally fit and sporty

Is this referring to the FWR hardy perennial that society deems women who are good at maths or sporty not to be proper women? I don't think I've come across it except on here.

ErrolTheDragon · 13/12/2020 17:36

No, more just the reality that women are underrepresented or undervalued in those fields.

I think I've come across 'womanly' being used in 19th/early 20th c literature more to do with characteristics than appearance - 'strong mature tenderness' type of thing. But I can't remember where offhand.

Stripesnomore · 13/12/2020 17:50

I am not pretending either. The OP says that the same traits that make a man manly make a woman womanly.

I don’t know what these traits are, but she doesn’t seem to mean masculine and feminine as those traits are different not the same.

Perhaps she means mature, although helping a victim of an rta is something a responsible person of any age would do.

borntobequiet · 13/12/2020 18:32

Womanly = like an adult human female.
Manly = like an adult human male.

Stripesnomore · 13/12/2020 18:36

Well then you can’t be a womanly woman, because that would be a woman who is like a woman. It makes no sense at all.

borntobequiet · 13/12/2020 18:40

People often say things that don’t make sense, though oddly it doesn’t stop other people understanding what they mean.

borntobequiet · 13/12/2020 18:41

And sometimes people say things that do make sense, and others don’t understand what they mean. What a strange world we live in.

Stripesnomore · 13/12/2020 18:47

If something doesn’t make sense, nobody, not even the speaker, understands what it means.

I think womanly means characteristics that are associated with mature women. So I might have a womanly thickened waist at 45 but a girlish laugh at 25.

If I were a character in an Enid Blyton novel.

I would consider this to be different to femininity which is more about personality traits like agreeableness and neuroticism.

But I don’t think any of this is what the OP is trying to get at.

borntobequiet · 13/12/2020 19:11

If something doesn’t make sense, nobody, not even the speaker, understands what it means.

Poetic language often doesn’t make sense, yet conveys meaning. Words can be moderated by tone, expression and body language to convey meaning that might contradict what is actually said.

Conversely, something sensible can be said but meaning is missed because of deficiencies in expression, or if the audience doesn’t comprehend the concepts being described.

Meaning is often elusive and not always conditional on sense or reason.

ChestnutStuffing · 13/12/2020 19:33

@JellySlice

No, I'm not thinking about feminine and masculine, nor about passive stereotypes and powerful stereotypes.

It's about attributes that are seen positively in both women and men.

A skinny, camp, gay man might not be described as masculine, because he doesn't tick the stereotypes of masculinity. But on the bitterly cold winter day when we stopped to help a cyclist who had been knocked down by a car, and my skinny, camp, gay friend covered the cyclist with his coat, and crouched in shirt sleeves next to him until the paramedics arrived, giving no indication that he was cold, not even a dramatic sigh of relief when he put his coat back on, he would certainly have been described as manly.

'Manly' implies a man behaving in a positive way, regardless of his appearance, mannerisms or sexuality.

'Womanly' is more complicated, because it encompasses both the positive behaviours and some feminine stereotypes that make others feel comfortable.

But manly applied to a woman implies unwomanly, and womanly applied to a man implies unmanly - yet both describe positive attributes.

I don't think this is a common way people use this language or these ideas.
JellySlice · 13/12/2020 20:30

Poetic language often doesn’t make *sense, yet conveys meaning. Words can be moderated by tone, expression and body language to convey meaning that might contradict what is actually said.

Conversely, something sensible can be said but meaning is missed because of deficiencies in expression, or if the audience doesn’t comprehend the concepts being described.

Meaning is often elusive and not always conditional on sense or reason.*

Particularly with subjective, descriptive language.

I see that some posters get what I'm trying to say, but I also accept that it is probably more about my slightly foreign understanding of language.

OP posts:
Stripesnomore · 13/12/2020 20:50

So is that what is happening here? Are you attempting to be poetic OP? Given that we are on the internet, I am not misreading body language.

As far as I understood it, you were asking why people didn’t use the word womanly to describe men, but people were confused by what you thought manly and womanly meant.

The confusion lay in a. you describing someone dealing calmly with an rta as manly and b. you saying manly and womanly traits are often the same.

Do you want to try and explain further what you think the words mean? I am quite happy for your meaning to be wholly subjective, as long as you actually give a meaning of some kind.

SciFiScream · 13/12/2020 21:15

Hmmm. I'm a woman. I have often been told that I walk and run like a man.

Does that help? I'm a manly woman in that sense?

borntobequiet · 13/12/2020 21:16

@borntobequiet

Womanly = like an adult human female. Manly = like an adult human male.
I will help OP out by quoting myself (have always wanted to do that)
JellySlice · 13/12/2020 21:32

The gay friend I mentioned came out to his rather old-fashioned Jewish family in the early 90s. They struggled to accept it in a "We love you but we don't understand you are you sure?" way.

When I told them about the cyclist and the way my friend had helped him, the granny's response was "I always knew

OP posts:
JellySlice · 13/12/2020 21:36

Oops

The granny's response was "I always knew he was a mentsh." Mentsh being the Yiddish word for man, but meaning more than just a biological designation. Meaning a man to be proud of, a man who behaves with honour and respect.

OP posts:
DidoLamenting · 13/12/2020 21:39

@JellySlice

The gay friend I mentioned came out to his rather old-fashioned Jewish family in the early 90s. They struggled to accept it in a "We love you but we don't understand you are you sure?" way.

When I told them about the cyclist and the way my friend had helped him, the granny's response was "I always knew

Always knew what?

That her grandson would be a good person to have at an accident scene?

That despite being gay he has good qualities?

Stripesnomore · 13/12/2020 22:00

OP, is what you are describing a bit like in films set in the Georgian period?

Where if a woman acted in a very calm and kind manner she would be described as a ladylike woman and if a man acted in a calm and kind manner, he would be described as a gentlemanlike man?

So the behaviour is the same but the adjective is different?

JellySlice · 13/12/2020 22:22

That despite being gay he has good qualities?

No. That despite not being masculine he had good, manly, qualities.

stripesnomore , I think you are right.

OP posts:
Stripesnomore · 13/12/2020 23:04

In that case, I think that it would be similar to when we talk about something like English values. What makes decent English values is probably very similar to what the French thinks makes decent French values. But a French person wouldn’t want to be told they have decent English values, because they are proud of being French. In the same way I don’t want to be called a decent manly woman because I am proud of being a decent woman, even though it is very similar to being a decent man!

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