Retired prison governor on transwomen in women's prisons

[ArabellaScott]

Rhona Hotchkiss writing in Centre for Crime and Justice Studies - 'we need open discussion'.

'As the governor in charge of women’s prisons in Scotland, I became increasingly dismayed at the rising numbers of transwomen in the estate and incidents related to their behaviour and this relative disregard for the impact on women’s mental and physical well-being.

There were numerous incidents over the course of a few years of inappropriate sexualised and aggressive behaviour and threats towards women by transwomen, and I have been told of others by concerned colleagues, prisoners and ex-prisoners. These incidents often caused real distress, and in women with serious mental health issues, outright confusion'

www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/resources/we-need-open-discussion-welfare-women-prison?fbclid=IwAR3jinUDqlSkA3NlnNddaSQ_YfwMfYsggIDnHaSK7x6hHzxWEFbHNvvxRgw

This is kind of a tangent, but there needs to be a new study on patterns of criminal behaviour for men, women, transmen and transwomen.

Gender critical feminists argue that transwomen have male patterns of criminal behaviour. TRAs claim the opposite.

A study would benefit both sides by clearing things up. If the feminists are right, then crimes by transwomen shouldn't be included in women's stats because they'll skew them. Similarly, transwomen should be treated as posing the same risk as men. If the TRAs are right, it could change people's understanding of what it means to be trans - e.g. that transwomen really do have 'typical female behaviours'. They should support feminists in getting a wide-ranging study done.

Inb4 "transphobic" and "liar"

Crimes committed by males should be recorded in the male stats because, regardless of identity and regardless of obtaining legal recognition of acquired gender, these crimes have not been committed by females. To record them in the female stats is to assert an untruth.

Males should not be housed in the female estate because, regardless of gender identity and regardless of obtaining legal recognition of acquired gender, they are not female and female offenders are entitled to single-sex-single prisons. This is their right in law. Single-sex spaces are also very strongly indicated as necessary for female offenders on the basis of evidence collected by MoJ and HMPPS.

Even nice males. Even males who conform to female patterns of offending. Even vulnerable males. Even harmless males. No male prisoners to be housed in the female estate.

That video is astonishing, I had no idea Canada was so stupid. Will they wait until a woman is killed before they change this utter lunacy?

@KeepPrisonsSingleSex

Crimes committed by males should be recorded in the male stats because, regardless of identity and regardless of obtaining legal recognition of acquired gender, these crimes have not been committed by females. To record them in the female stats is to assert an untruth.

Males should not be housed in the female estate because, regardless of gender identity and regardless of obtaining legal recognition of acquired gender, they are not female and female offenders are entitled to single-sex-single prisons. This is their right in law. Single-sex spaces are also very strongly indicated as necessary for female offenders on the basis of evidence collected by MoJ and HMPPS.

Even nice males. Even males who conform to female patterns of offending. Even vulnerable males. Even harmless males. No male prisoners to be housed in the female estate.

THIS

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

When are women's human rights going to be upheld? When is it going to be acknowledged that it is a violation of our human rights to deprive us of single sex spaces - prisons, yes, and all the others too?

When are we going to be seen as fully human?

I’m fucking tired of waiting.

Just celebrate being trans if that's your thing, but don't expect to be treated at the sex you are not.

Rather tricky for the genuine transsexual that isn’t it, given the very essence of their condition is defined by them trying to change themselves sufficiently so that society does treat them as the sex they are not. Whether male to female or female to male.

"the very essence of their condition is defined by them trying to change themselves sufficiently so that society does treat them as the sex they are not."

Yes, it's a shame for them that that can't really happen. What we need instead is to change society so that no-one is treated a particular way because of the sex that they are.

I'm so tired with this and pissed off.

It's totally fucking obvious that men should not be in women in stuff that is sex segregated.

The fact that so so many things have said ok. Shows up that women simply do not fucking matter. Still.

There's no other reason.

Who the fuck puts men in a women's prison? Including rapists?

The fact we are having to argue why they shouldn't be there is fucking depressing.

@MondayYogurt

Good to see figures.

If worst-case HMCIP estimates are correct, there could be up to 1600 prisoners who are transwomen in the female estate, with over 600 of those being sex offenders, compared to around 30 female sex offenders now. Sex offender programmes designed for women, flawed as they are, would have to be completely redesigned to take the causation, pattern and volume of ‘male’ offending into account.

I think that these come from theoretical figures if self meant that any males who identified as a woman could be transferred in (which was 1 in 50 by another study)

Crimes committed by males should be recorded in the male stats because, regardless of identity and regardless of obtaining legal recognition of acquired gender, these crimes have not been committed by females. To record them in the female stats is to assert an untruth

This is so true. The route causes of the crimes will be different too (eg. Female sex offenders often get their convictions due to facilitation of access for men, and so need more support around being assertive/ having appropriate boundaries, which is different for the re-offending management that males need)- heather also talks about this in her video, that the programs in female prison have been designed for females.

If a person has male genitalia, they will not be incarcerated in a female prison estate, they will be in a male prison.

If a person has female genitalia they will be in a female estate

This is the law

If a person has male genitalia, they will not be incarcerated in a female prison estate, they will be in a male prison

If a person has female genitalia they will be in a female estate

This is the law
So please do explain how Karen white et al broke these rules.

I actually believe that is the law. Yes. The law has been broken.

@NiceGerbil

I'm so tired with this and pissed off.

It's totally fucking obvious that men should not be in women in stuff that is sex segregated.

The fact that so so many things have said ok. Shows up that women simply do not fucking matter. Still.

There's no other reason.

Who the fuck puts men in a women's prison? Including rapists?

The fact we are having to argue why they shouldn't be there is fucking depressing.

It is very depressing and does show that women simply don't matter, you're right. The people who've allowed this to happen disgust me; I think they're callous, thoughtless scum.

Women's rights are human rights.

This is the law

I wish you were right!

There is no straight forward law. People with the protected characteristic of ‘gender reassignment’ under the equality act can be excluded from the facilities of their target sex if it is deemed to be a ‘proportionate means to a legitimate aim’.

Equality Act 2010.

Problem is, no one knows what this means, hence the Women and Equalities Committee last week pretty much begging for clarification.

Apparently, avoiding the sexual assault of female people has, in the past, not been considered a ‘proportionate means to a legitimate aim’.

@JackyFrost

If a person has male genitalia, they will not be incarcerated in a female prison estate, they will be in a male prison.

If a person has female genitalia they will be in a female estate

This is the law

I am afraid this is incorrect.

Prison policy states that males with a GRC stating that they have legal recognition of acquired gender must be housed in the female estate. Anatomy, including genital anatomy, is irrelevant and decisions on where to house cannot be made on this basis.

Further the GRA excludes the requirement for reassignment surgery or hormone treatment in order to obtain a GRC.

This means that males with fully-functioning and intact male anatomy will be housed in women's prisons if they have a GRC.

Prison searching protocols for transgender prisoners also state that decisions on searching cannot be made in consideration of anatomy.

Thus, a male prisoner with fully functioning and intact male anatomy must be 'strip searched' by female prison officers and according to the searching protocols for female prisoners if that prisoner has a GRC.

Searching protocols for male and for female prisoners differ on occasion. Where there is a difference, females are searched at a lower level which reflects the differing risk profiles for male and for female prisoners considered as groups. Even where a 'strip search' is indicated, there are still important differences in the protocols for male prisoners and for female prisoners, with female searching being less intrusive. So what this also means is that male prisoners with a GRC will be searched in accordance withe a searching protocol developed to reflect the lower risk that female prisoners reflect. I believe that this must have implications for security.

**JackyFrost

If a person has male genitalia, they will not be incarcerated in a female prison estate, they will be in a male prison.

If a person has female genitalia they will be in a female estate

This is the law**

As you work with offenders I am really surprised you don't know that fully intact males are being housed in the female prison estate.

a proportionate means to a legitimate aim

Women's safety and dignity and privacy is a legitimate aim.

Excluding males is proportionate.

That's that sorted. Now! I'm sure we've got other stuff to be getting on with!

Prison policy states that males with a GRC stating that they have legal recognition of acquired gender must be housed in the female estate. Anatomy, including genital anatomy, is irrelevant and decisions on where to house cannot be made on this basis.

For anyone who doubts this, here's the government guidance.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/863610/transgender-pf.pdf

all individuals who are transgender must be initially allocated to part of the estate which matches their legally recognised gender

We don't know of a single case of a male with a GRC who has been moved into the male estate. As posted upthread, they may be moved to the transgender unit as Downview,. but this is intended as a temporary measure and they are able to mix with women in the wider estate when participating in activities.

@ArabellaScott

a proportionate means to a legitimate aim

Women's safety and dignity and privacy is a legitimate aim.

Excluding males is proportionate.

That's that sorted. Now! I'm sure we've got other stuff to be getting on with!

If only, eh?

Women (and children, and even some transmen) have been collateral damage so far.
Times are changing though. Thank fuck.

It may be current policy, and current govt guidance, but it’s not the law. It is based on an incorrect interpretation of the law, and as such is ultra vires. They are acting out with the scope of their discretion to act if they are doing sth which is illegal.

I've finally got round to watching that video, she's so funny! I wish I'd been there. I admire her so much. She just unequivocal that this policy causes harm to women. As should be so bleedin' obvious to everyone.