Irish Feminists - I've had a reply re Prison Inmate

[Glinnerisgreat]

Hi All,

I couldn't find the original thread which got us all writing to our TD. So I hope you are all here and can find this. As you know, I name changed for this.

Here is the reply I received yesterday evening from the Minister for Justice (not written by her, but by her Department Secretary (which possibly makes it more unreal). Anyway, the main take is that they are wedded to this ideology and really Irish women just need to shush now and all will be well. And also that there is a "biology of gender" - I honestly could write a tirade but I am too tired of it all and I hope you guys will read this and formulate a plan, an idea - something. I will come back to this later to-day and hope you have all seen it by then.

Thanks all.

So here goes:

Thank you for your correspondence to the Minister for Justice, Ms. Helen McEntee T.D, regarding the Gender Recognition Act 2015 and the cervical screening website. The Minister has asked to reply to you on her behalf.

I would like to apologise for the delay in response.

Firstly, I can advise you that the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection (DEASP) has responsibility for the Gender Recognition Act 2015, and undertook a review of this legislation between 2017-2018. A copy of your correspondence was sent to that Department for attention also. I have also arranged for a copy of your correspondence to be forwarded to Department of Health to address the concerns the raise about the cervical screening website.

The National LGBTI+ Inclusion Strategy 2019-2021 (NLIS) contains an action that requires that DEASP makes a report to each House of the Oireachtas of the findings on the review of the Gender Recognition Act 2015 and of the conclusions drawn from the findings. This is now complete, with the report laid before the Oireachtas on 29 November 2019.

The Programme for Government subsequently included the following commitment under the heading of gender recognition: Remove the need for a person aged 16 and 17 years to have two specialist reports before they can apply for legal gender recognition, by providing for self-declaration, with parental consent and by making mediation available on a voluntary basis. These improvements will include the provision of a gender recognition certificate providing proof of change of name as well as gender. Make any necessary changes to the law to allow legal name change be part of the gender recognition process. Commence research to examine arrangements for under children under 16.

As you will understand, the provision of health services for transgender people is a matter for the Department of Health and the HSE.

I hope you will appreciate that it would not be appropriate for the Minister to comment on any individual prisoner.

However, I can provide you with the following general information which may be of interest to you. As you are aware, the Irish Prison Service is responsible for the safe and secure custody of all persons held in prison. I have been advised by the Service that they have experience dealing with committals of transgender persons.

Where a court makes an order committing a person to a prison, the Irish Prison Service must accept that person into custody in whichever prison is specified by the court. Prisoners committed to Limerick Prison are accommodated in accordance with their legal gender.

I am advised that, on arrival in prison, all prisoners are brought to the reception / committal unit of the prison, where there is an opportunity to provide details as part of the committal interview process. The assessment of the prisoner’s needs may require a Prison Governor to consider the biological gender, legal gender, gender identity, transgender, gender expression, sexual orientation or gender recognition legislation.

I am, however, also informed that the Governor will consider the risks posed including any risk to the prisoner themselves and any level of risk to other prisoners. This risk assessment will determine the regime necessary to ensure the safety of all prisoners and may include the accommodation of the prisoner on a restricted regime under Rule 63 of the Prison Rules 2007. I am further advised that in such cases the Governor may also make a recommendation on the appropriate placement within the prison system, taking into consideration good order, security and operational issues, protection issues, available accommodation and the healthcare needs of the prisoner as well as the safety and security of other prisoners and staff.

Finally, you may wish to be aware that there are number of actions contained in the National LGBTI+ Inclusion Strategy relating to LGBTI+ prisoners. Action 13.3 commits the IPS to "develop a placement and accommodation policy to reflect and build upon existing good practice in the accommodation of vulnerable prisoners including LGBTI+ people and I understand that exploratory discussions have been held with relevant stakeholders in that regard.

Relevant officials in the Department are examining options, in conjunction with the Irish Prison Service, regarding the future management of this cohort of prisoners within the Irish Prison Estate.

I trust this is of assistance to you.

I've scanned the letter several times and I can't find a mention of woman/women once. I would guess you used it in your original letter to them.

I bet they aren't putting female prisoners with a gender identity in the male estate.

What strikes me is that the review was made prior to the Barbie debacle. But it does not look as if they are going to review again. They just plan on expanding the legislation to young people and eventually perhaps children . I think it will take legal cases such as Keira Bell to make them pause for thought regarding under 18s.

Women's concerns will not be important, they will be dismissed as bigotry.

I would be interested in what guidance will be given to schools regarding safeguarding. I know BeLonGTo have guidelines but these are mainly about helping a transitioning child. But accommodating a transitioning child would raise safeguarding concerns such as overnight trips, toilets etc. You would hope that the Government have ensured that proper planning is in place and that they haven't simply handed it all over to a lobby group.

I would a wonder about is this statement .

"The assessment of the prisoner’s needs may require a Prison Governor to consider the biological gender, legal gender, gender identity, transgender, gender expression, sexual orientation or gender recognition legislation."

They use the words "biological gender". Surely that should be "biological sex".?
You would expect the Dept of Justice to know the difference between sex and gender. It would be interesting to know which gets precedence.
I suspect gender is given precedennce , but that statement would suggest it is not set in stone.

@Weatherwarning, yes that was what I was alluding to in the post - they do not know the difference between gender and sex (or think that I don't ?). But being on these boards informed me that the Irish equality legislation protects gender not sex so we are in a much worse situation that women in the UK and any other country where the wording says sex. Of course, this is because in Ireland people were too conservative to use the word sex in legislation - and now look where that has landed us.

"Accordingly, if the preferred gender is the male gender the person’s sex becomes that of a man, and if it is the female gender the person’s sex becomes that of a woman"
This is from Gov.ie. Again it conflates sex with gender.

Sorry, posted too soon. That statement doesn't make sense. It seems as if, n Ireland, sex and gender are the same., which of course they aren't.
How are they going to teach biology from now on, I wonder? Presumably, "feeling like a woman" will be a measurable tool. Perhaps, a colour code from pink to blue??

*The World Health Organisation regional office for Europe describes sex as characteristics that are biologically defined, whereas gender is based on socially constructed features. They recognise that there are variations in how people experience gender based upon self-perception and expression, and how they behave.Feb 21, 2019"
The WHO definition of sex and gender. There appears to be some flaws in the policy in Ireland, as both the Government website, and that letter from the Dept of Justice would indicate that they don't realise there is a difference. Though that actually makes it even worse that they voted for it. You can't change biology.

Is this that the Irish Government is taking advice from bodies such as Belong to & ignoring WHO definitions ?

That letter is long, consulted & difficult to read or understand

Convulted

My goodness that is a wall of bureaucratic waffle. I'm guessing it is impenetrable on purpose.

All I am getting out of it is that their policies are under review, which is probably a good thing.

I think a good focus for further questions could be "which relevant stakeholders?" and a question on whether any women's groups or groups which represent the interests of female prisoners are involved in the stakeholder discussions on the placement of vulnerable prisoners.

I don't think there is any protection for sex in Irish legislation. Irish women can only look in envy at the UK protected characteristics. I wouldn't be too sure that it was a simple mistake using gender instead of sex. Enough of that nonsense of women thinking they have equality. They were cute enough to not open to widespread general public debate or bother with any impact assessment on the GRA.

Add all this to the list of injustices against women. This legislature (and NGO men's rights activists aren't that much removed from those who thought nothing of snapping women' pelvises for childbirth when they didn't need to and leaving them with a life of pain and incontinence. The state are still denying women and families of the mother and baby home victims the rights and respect they are due as citizens. The atavistic 85% male Dáil did their repressive forefathers proud. 78% now, isn't it? Which man TD said that Ireland was the envy of the world? Did he mean the envy of misogynistic men living elsewhere? Frontrunners in how to f•ck women over.

Men are who they brought the A4 self-ID in for. It is mostly girls and women who will be damaged. Yes, sure, women globally are looking in envy! Women and girls are those they are uncaringly sending down the route of sterilisation and prevent protection and safeguarding of their bodies! The male sex offenders and male wannabe sex offenders housed with women have their 'bod' intact, haven't they?

It all seems so hopeless. The lobby groups have the whole thing wrapped up, and nowhere along the way were the concerns of women considered. And if you try to raise them now you're written off as a right wing bigot, so the current narrative goes.
I don't know the most effective next move.

Sunlight, sunlight, sunlight. Not go quietly into the night. Thankfully the UK is finally getting some examination. Examination which would never have been done by the Irish state or legal system. Irish women and girls seem to be reliant on other countries to expose the whole thing.

@Cailleach1

Sunlight, sunlight, sunlight. Not go quietly into the night. Thankfully the UK is finally getting some examination. Examination which would never have been done by the Irish state or legal system. Irish women and girls seem to be reliant on other countries to expose the whole thing.

100% agree. There will eventually be changes made, but it will not be Ireland that will lead them. We only do that when we oppress women

"Accordingly, if the preferred gender is the male gender the person’s sex becomes that of a man, and if it is the female gender the person’s sex becomes that of a woman"

In terms of legal wording I don't struggle with this at all. It's saying that, for example, a man views himself as being a feminine person, then the public record of his sex, for example on his birth certificate, can be changed to "female". That this can happen is insane but the intention is clear and the wording gives effect to it. I don't think their is any confusion in between sex and gender. Someone was given the task to turn an absurd concept into legal wording and did so.

Not Irish so not realky qualified to comment so apologies.

First up seems a.load of big words that don't really address anything.

And secondly lgb prisoners are surely accommodated without issue and are no more or less an issue than anyone else in the prison. Theres only one reason one particular person maybe a higher risk as a class in a womens prison which they seem to be trying to hide admitting to by adding a letter onto the end....

I don't know the most effective next move.

Ask questions to get them to state in the clearest terms possible that they're committed to this insanity. Then when they want to do a U-turn they won't be able to pretend that they had misunderstood or that we didn't understand what they actually meant.

Ireland's equality laws outlaw discrimination on nine characteristics: gender, civil status, family status, sexual orientation, disability, religion, age, race, and membership of the Traveller community.

By gender above it means sex. It's only a matter of time before 'sexual orientation' is erased in favour of 'genderal orientation' because how can you be attracted to a person on the basis of their sex if sex doesn't exist?

@nauticant

"Accordingly, if the preferred gender is the male gender the person’s sex becomes that of a man, and if it is the female gender the person’s sex becomes that of a woman"

In terms of legal wording I don't struggle with this at all. It's saying that, for example, a man views himself as being a feminine person, then the public record of his sex, for example on his birth certificate, can be changed to "female". That this can happen is insane but the intention is clear and the wording gives effect to it. I don't think their is any confusion in between sex and gender. Someone was given the task to turn an absurd concept into legal wording and did so.

From what I can make from this mumbo jumbo is that the law is now saying sex is not decided by biology but instead by gender? I would agree that this is very deliberate. As gender is based on how you "feel", ( largely based on stereotypes of women) the definition of a woman becomes a stereotype. In the past a diagnosis of gender dysphoria was required but now there are nothing in law (apart from age which is being dealt with) to stop anyone from changing sex. So presumably there is no legal definition in Ireland for a woman. It is based on gender only. My passport states my sex is female. But so does any fully intact male with a GRC. So sex is meaningless. Biology is meaningless. So laws that protect women are actually meaningless. It is all so fxckec up it is mind boggling.

@Ernmas

Ireland's equality laws outlaw discrimination on nine characteristics: gender, civil status, family status, sexual orientation, disability, religion, age, race, and membership of the Traveller community.

By gender above it means sex. It's only a matter of time before 'sexual orientation' is erased in favour of 'genderal orientation' because how can you be attracted to a person on the basis of their sex if sex doesn't exist?

I really hope you are right. And that is a very interesting point about sexual orientation. But based on the WHO gender is different to sex (which it is) and the Government must have known this when they passed the GRA. So why do they conflate the words continuously. I would hope a judge would say by gender they mean sex. But equally a judge might say by gender that they mean gender (n the Equality legislation).

Well they have already shown which side they will come down on (the legal profession and the Dail) by allowing the prisoners to date who self ID as a GENDER to be allowed in to a prison for a SEX. However, the Equality legislation (which was so worded because we in Ireland had such a hang up on using the word sex) was an open goal for the gender ideologues who wanted to trample all over our rights. Make no mistake, there was a reason Ireland was chosen as first in the world for this type of legislation - it had the most ambiguously worded legislation.

I really don't know if I can be bothered to pursue this as a one woman operation against such intransigence (against a department headed by a woman who now (in the last 48 hours) understands what sex discrimination is) but who could care less about ordinary women when reversing the bus. I would happily go forward if I felt we had a Baroness Nicholson in our corner, but alas, I think there is groupthink and then there is Irish Groupthink.

I mean, he was actually congratulating them on pursuing the legislative changes to make it easier for young children to be medically experimented on, while the UK have now dropped this idea - it does not look to me like a group of people who will back down.

The opening gambit of "Firstly, I can advise you that the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection (DEASP) has responsibility for the Gender Recognition Act 2015" followed by their "explanation" about how they deal with trans identifying prisoners suggests to me that they are saying they're not the ones behind this and are just having to implement the Act and the Strategy that they refer to.

In answer to your question about what to do next, I'd take their statement as a suggestion to you that they think you should take up your issues with the DEASP. It seems that the Dept of Justice/Prison Service is going to take the line that they are just following orders (historically, not a defence that has always gone well).

Thank you for this.

We are working on an International section on our website which will include a page on prisons in Ireland (as well as pages for Canada, USA, Western Australia and South Africa).

Will forward this to the woman collating the information for the Ireland page.

@KeepPrisonsSingleSex

Thank you for this.

We are working on an International section on our website which will include a page on prisons in Ireland (as well as pages for Canada, USA, Western Australia and South Africa).

Will forward this to the woman collating the information for the Ireland page.

Thanks for this. Perhaps if Ireland is held up internationally for its failures in this area, they might be shamed in to action.

@Glinnerisgreat

Well they have already shown which side they will come down on (the legal profession and the Dail) by allowing the prisoners to date who self ID as a GENDER to be allowed in to a prison for a SEX. However, the Equality legislation (which was so worded because we in Ireland had such a hang up on using the word sex) was an open goal for the gender ideologues who wanted to trample all over our rights. Make no mistake, there was a reason Ireland was chosen as first in the world for this type of legislation - it had the most ambiguously worded legislation.

I really don't know if I can be bothered to pursue this as a one woman operation against such intransigence (against a department headed by a woman who now (in the last 48 hours) understands what sex discrimination is) but who could care less about ordinary women when reversing the bus. I would happily go forward if I felt we had a Baroness Nicholson in our corner, but alas, I think there is groupthink and then there is Irish Groupthink.

I mean, he was actually congratulating them on pursuing the legislative changes to make it easier for young children to be medically experimented on, while the UK have now dropped this idea - it does not look to me like a group of people who will back down.

I can understand how you feel. I know from contacting TDs myself that currently there is no political will to backtrack on this at present. The current coalition will not veer from the programme for government which plans expanding the legislation. They will stick with the current policy rather than risk a general election. Anyway FG have put this in place and won't want to acknowledge that they got this wrong. The Greens are so woke that they are no better. That leaves SF. In order to get into power they would need to pair up with parties such as People before profit, who are 100% TWAW. So while I think it is important that they know that people aren't happy, it will take something much bigger, legally, to make them do anything about it.

@Weatherwarning, I am totally up for a legal challenge if we could get a point of law, and I am completely willing to put the work in, in terms of research, preparation, planning, fund-raising.

I just don't really know where to go with this as a one man band (and I know I am not alone on this but it often seems like that) when as you say there is no political will to change it. I am also disgusted, as I am a long-time canvasser for FG and the FG members I grew up with would turn in their graves if they knew that this is where we ended up.

I won't say any more on a public forum but I am never going to canvass for another political party unless women are treated with respect - and we are such a long way from that, I despair for my children. I love the work of the Countess on Twitter though - and Stella O'Malley is inspirational.