Irish Feminists - I've had a reply re Prison Inmate

[Glinnerisgreat]

Hi All,

I couldn't find the original thread which got us all writing to our TD. So I hope you are all here and can find this. As you know, I name changed for this.

Here is the reply I received yesterday evening from the Minister for Justice (not written by her, but by her Department Secretary (which possibly makes it more unreal). Anyway, the main take is that they are wedded to this ideology and really Irish women just need to shush now and all will be well. And also that there is a "biology of gender" - I honestly could write a tirade but I am too tired of it all and I hope you guys will read this and formulate a plan, an idea - something. I will come back to this later to-day and hope you have all seen it by then.

Thanks all.

So here goes:

Thank you for your correspondence to the Minister for Justice, Ms. Helen McEntee T.D, regarding the Gender Recognition Act 2015 and the cervical screening website. The Minister has asked to reply to you on her behalf.

I would like to apologise for the delay in response.

Firstly, I can advise you that the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection (DEASP) has responsibility for the Gender Recognition Act 2015, and undertook a review of this legislation between 2017-2018. A copy of your correspondence was sent to that Department for attention also. I have also arranged for a copy of your correspondence to be forwarded to Department of Health to address the concerns the raise about the cervical screening website.

The National LGBTI+ Inclusion Strategy 2019-2021 (NLIS) contains an action that requires that DEASP makes a report to each House of the Oireachtas of the findings on the review of the Gender Recognition Act 2015 and of the conclusions drawn from the findings. This is now complete, with the report laid before the Oireachtas on 29 November 2019.

The Programme for Government subsequently included the following commitment under the heading of gender recognition: Remove the need for a person aged 16 and 17 years to have two specialist reports before they can apply for legal gender recognition, by providing for self-declaration, with parental consent and by making mediation available on a voluntary basis. These improvements will include the provision of a gender recognition certificate providing proof of change of name as well as gender. Make any necessary changes to the law to allow legal name change be part of the gender recognition process. Commence research to examine arrangements for under children under 16.

As you will understand, the provision of health services for transgender people is a matter for the Department of Health and the HSE.

I hope you will appreciate that it would not be appropriate for the Minister to comment on any individual prisoner.

However, I can provide you with the following general information which may be of interest to you. As you are aware, the Irish Prison Service is responsible for the safe and secure custody of all persons held in prison. I have been advised by the Service that they have experience dealing with committals of transgender persons.

Where a court makes an order committing a person to a prison, the Irish Prison Service must accept that person into custody in whichever prison is specified by the court. Prisoners committed to Limerick Prison are accommodated in accordance with their legal gender.

I am advised that, on arrival in prison, all prisoners are brought to the reception / committal unit of the prison, where there is an opportunity to provide details as part of the committal interview process. The assessment of the prisoner’s needs may require a Prison Governor to consider the biological gender, legal gender, gender identity, transgender, gender expression, sexual orientation or gender recognition legislation.

I am, however, also informed that the Governor will consider the risks posed including any risk to the prisoner themselves and any level of risk to other prisoners. This risk assessment will determine the regime necessary to ensure the safety of all prisoners and may include the accommodation of the prisoner on a restricted regime under Rule 63 of the Prison Rules 2007. I am further advised that in such cases the Governor may also make a recommendation on the appropriate placement within the prison system, taking into consideration good order, security and operational issues, protection issues, available accommodation and the healthcare needs of the prisoner as well as the safety and security of other prisoners and staff.

Finally, you may wish to be aware that there are number of actions contained in the National LGBTI+ Inclusion Strategy relating to LGBTI+ prisoners. Action 13.3 commits the IPS to "develop a placement and accommodation policy to reflect and build upon existing good practice in the accommodation of vulnerable prisoners including LGBTI+ people and I understand that exploratory discussions have been held with relevant stakeholders in that regard.

Relevant officials in the Department are examining options, in conjunction with the Irish Prison Service, regarding the future management of this cohort of prisoners within the Irish Prison Estate.

I trust this is of assistance to you.

@KeepPrisonsSingleSex, that sounds like an amazing project - who would have thought we would have to have a campaign to keep prisons single sex in the 21st Century?????

@Glinnerisgreat

Well they have already shown which side they will come down on (the legal profession and the Dail) by allowing the prisoners to date who self ID as a GENDER to be allowed in to a prison for a SEX. However, the Equality legislation (which was so worded because we in Ireland had such a hang up on using the word sex) was an open goal for the gender ideologues who wanted to trample all over our rights. Make no mistake, there was a reason Ireland was chosen as first in the world for this type of legislation - it had the most ambiguously worded legislation.

I really don't know if I can be bothered to pursue this as a one woman operation against such intransigence (against a department headed by a woman who now (in the last 48 hours) understands what sex discrimination is) but who could care less about ordinary women when reversing the bus. I would happily go forward if I felt we had a Baroness Nicholson in our corner, but alas, I think there is groupthink and then there is Irish Groupthink.

I mean, he was actually congratulating them on pursuing the legislative changes to make it easier for young children to be medically experimented on, while the UK have now dropped this idea - it does not look to me like a group of people who will back down.

You are perfectly right here. I see women TDs going on about gender based violence and being discriminated against because of their gender and I just want to scream say SEX!!!! It is because of your biologcal SEX not fecking gender.

Can I just ask about the cervical screening website, I went in there a while back when people were complaining about them having removed the word woman from the website and I couldn't see it anywhere but I needed to go in there again a couple of days ago and the word is there now in some places and i can't tell if they've put it back in places or it was always there once or twice but I missed it. Anyone hear anything about the HSE reinstating the word woman?

I don't think they've changed it.

www2.hse.ie/screening-and-vaccinations/cervical-screening/when-you-should-have-cervical-screening/who-should-have-cervical-screening.html

You can check specific pages on web.archive.org to see if they've been altered.

@allmywhat

I don't think they've changed it.

www2.hse.ie/screening-and-vaccinations/cervical-screening/when-you-should-have-cervical-screening/who-should-have-cervical-screening.html

You can check specific pages on web.archive.org to see if they've been altered.

Thanks, those two women references must have been left there accidentally then when they were removing the word. It does read a bit odd like they changed it to people in one part but left women in the second :

"Every year in Ireland about 300 people get cervical cancer. 90 women die from it."

@AryaStarkWolf

Can I just ask about the cervical screening website, I went in there a while back when people were complaining about them having removed the word woman from the website and I couldn't see it anywhere but I needed to go in there again a couple of days ago and the word is there now in some places and i can't tell if they've put it back in places or it was always there once or twice but I missed it. Anyone hear anything about the HSE reinstating the word woman?

I read here recently that Women's Council and TENI had met with Cervical check and agreed on the wording. I think it was women, trans men and non binary people with a cervix. Non binary is the next goal after legal recognition for Gender reform for children. They are obviously getting started, with help from their handmaidens.

"She said the NWC and Teni met the HSE’s national cancer screening service last week and recommended an amendment to its electronic information so that “sentences that refer to people who have a cervix would read ‘women, transgender men, intersex and non-binary people with a cervix’”.

From a post by @secondrow on another thread.

I would reply back and ask if Irish prisons are now mixed sex, yes or no. It's a load of waffle but that seems to be what they are saying by "legal gender".
In a country where self id is permitted, organising accommodation by legal gender = mixed sex.

@Weatherwarning

Sorry, posted too soon. That statement doesn't make sense. It seems as if, n Ireland, sex and gender are the same., which of course they aren't. How are they going to teach biology from now on, I wonder? Presumably, "feeling like a woman" will be a measurable tool. Perhaps, a colour code from pink to blue??

My kid came home from (sec) school today saying that their biology teacher said there were "2 genders" (conflation again!) but was screamed at by the kids.

"Biological gender"? I mean, I know what that means but I thought biology was a dirty word. Or is sex the word they are scared of. That and "woman".

Are Sinn Fein gender critical? Would they jeopardise their new found youth vote?

@3timeslucky

Are Sinn Fein gender critical? Would they jeopardise their new found youth vote?

They voted for GRA in 2015 (didn't they all😳). They know the problems but are terrified of being accused of being transphobic.

www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/andrews-in-apology-for-anti-trans-tweets-likes-39830416.html
The funny thing is that my eldest is in a major Irish University and says the vast majority of students don't buy into this ideology. I don't think it would be a deal breaker for the youth vote.

@Weatherwarning I don't think so either, the SM voices and activists are just very loud and make it seem like there are more of them then they actually are.

I saw the Chris Andrews tweet/apology but didn't take it as indicative of a party awareness.

The funny thing is that my eldest is in a major Irish University and says the vast majority of students don't buy into this ideology.

I could have written this sentence exactly, but I have struggled to know if it is generally true rather than indicative of his friends. The third level institutions have certainly been captured at an institutional level and the loud voices that are heard through the SUs would give the impression that the university populations are of one opinion. Staff I have spoken to would not speak out. I don't think students feel they can either.

I think it is generally true. Though certain categories of courses will attract a more "woke" crowd. Most young people I know would be supportive of trans rights, as I would myself. But that does not equal believing that trans women are ACTUAL women.
I cannot understand why the government did not separate gender from sex. For example in driving licenced or passports why not include both gender and sex?
This would give trans men and women full protection to live in their chosen gender but also recognise biological sex as a protection for women.

Agree. I don't know anyone of any age who isn't supportive of trans rights (but not to the detriment of others' rights).

I also agree about the use of the terms sex and gender. Much of the confusion and difficulty in even talking about this comes from the interchangeable way they're used. My understanding is that for those who have decided there's no biological reality at all they don't want a record of both sex and gender but I think the vast majority of the population would be quite happy with that. It surely has advantages also for trans people in a medical environment in ensuring they get the appropriate examinations/care/focus based on their biological sex, plus an interventions relating to their gender identity (whether ops or hormones). Both are relevant to the care they might need.

This will be further undermined by the proposed changes to our equality legislation. We’ll be fecked altogether if this goes through-

womensspaceireland.ie/articles/will-state-agencies-stand-up-for-women-and-girls-sex-based-rights/

Not sure if this has been posted already but just in case

@AryaStarkWolf

Not sure if this has been posted already but just in case

Presumably the advocacy group for trans activists will be Teni, and the advocacy group for women will be NWCI, who also represent Transwoman, (and support the silencing of GC women). So the Equity Strategy Steering Group may not be too equitable??

Thank you so much for this thread, and others that are highlighting the ridiculousness of the Irish situation...I can't quite believe were are here AGAIN having to fight for this crap.

I remember when I was a teenager and the X Case was in the news, feeling then that the government was not on women's side, and more than 25 years later they are still trying to undermine us.

Until very recently, I had no idea that the Equality Act now states Gender as a protected characteristic, instead of Sex. This is so worrying, and what's worse is that most people don't seem to realise that it even happened! It's like they sneakily brought it in without telling anyone and hoped we wouldn't notice.

It's like they give with one hand (abortion, gay marriage), and then take away with the other (this shite!)...

Anyway, I hope this thread keeps going because there isn't really an Irish site where this is being discussed openly. Most of my friends are lovely people, who would parrot the TWAW without a second thought as to what that really means, and just want to be seen as 'good allies'.

@Blahblah84 yeah, you're dead right, I didn't even know that they had brought in Self ID until I heard that on mumsnet. It's sneaky and disgraceful

I am Irish but haven't lived there for over 25 years. I am saddened that women are so poorly thought of in Ireland.

I remember reading an article in the Irish Times about the impact of child sex abuse and how it had a greater financial impact on men than on women because women were more likely to take time out from working to have families and were less likely to have full time jobs afterwards so therefore it made sense to place a lower value on the impact of sex abuse on women than on men. At the time I was dealing with the fall out of historic sex abuse in my family and I howled with the injustice of it all. The number of column inches dedicated to the abuse of boys far outstripped the space given to the abuse of girls while all research shows that the prevalence of female abuse is far higher than male abuse. There was some attemot to justify this because people are more horrified by male on male sex abuse as it is seen as unnatural by society and the church whereas abusing female children was somehow a natural urge. There was also more press space given to the very very small percentage of false accusations than the shocking cover up and destruction of records relating to hundreds of women and children who's lives were destroyed as a result of pregnancy outside of marriage.

Now women are being asked to give up any semblance that they are oppressed and abused because of their sex but that this is because of their inner gender identity as if they could somehow identify out of it.

Sex has always been a difficult word to say in Ireland, I wonder if we have more euphemisms for sexual intercourse than any other nation? Now we are redefining what the word woman means and are not permitted to link it to biological sex.

@ChateauMargaux, In fairness, this ideology was not dreamt up in Ireland and we are far from alone in what we're facing into. Attempts to erase the concept of biological sex and to re-define words like woman are not unique to Ireland. There are layers, nuances and ironies specific to Ireland but unfortunately we're just one of many in this situation.

Presumably the advocacy group for trans activists will be Teni, and the advocacy group for women will be NWCI, who also represent Transwoman, (and support the silencing of GC women). So the Equity Strategy Steering Group may not be too equitable??

I got a reply from them today :

"Thank you for your email.

In November of this year we asked for your feedback on our new public information and educational resources materials in CervicalCheck. We specifically asked for your thoughts on our new use of gender neutral language, and our efforts to make sure the cervical screening service is accessible and inclusive of everyone in the population. We wanted to evaluate how we can develop and improve it. You can read more about our literature revision process here.

A big thank you to everyone who responded. You shared your thoughts on the good work we are doing, and also indicated where you would like to see change.

You told us that you would like to see the use of the word “woman” included, where we have said “people with a cervix”. You said it was important for understanding and for inclusion.

You said that while you understood that we have a schedule in place to evaluate, develop and improve all our HPV literature, you would nevertheless like to see the word “woman” inserted on an interim basis, while we work through our longer-term revision process.

We have listened to extensive stakeholder feedback and have made this change to our website, leaflets and healthcare professional information. This means that the phrase “people with a cervix” has been changed to incorporate “women and people with a cervix” wherever it appears in our literature.

An NSS Communications Working Group, chaired by our Public Health division, is now arranging to meet with participants, healthcare professionals and advocacy groups to assess our new HPV cervical screening information, and consider this feedback further. This review process will form part of the work of our wider NSS Equity Strategy, which has begun in 2020.

The NSS knows that working in partnership with patients and the public delivers better health outcomes. In support of this ideal, we established the Patient and Public Partnership panel, comprising patient representatives and staff of the NSS who work together to shape policy and communications across our four screening programmes. If you would like to join our Patient and Public Partnership panel, please email [email protected]

Kind Regards

CervicalCheck Information Service"

Some day we are all going to look back on this and say "imagine when people were stupid enough to indulge this". At least I hope we will. And hopefully people will have kept screen shots so we can remind them of what side they were on.