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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Carceral white feminist politics and bogeyman sex offenders

50 replies

SadlyMissTaken · 08/12/2020 18:10

This is a video of an academic symposium on Youtube which was set up in response to an event Doughty Street Chambers was holding on Tony Blair . One of the contributors makes some points I find disturbing but am not sure if I'm misinterpreting as it's quite dense and difficult to follow. It's Tanya Serisier, who is a deputy dean of criminal law at Birkbeck. Her section starts at around 25.45 minutes in.

The main passage I find disturbing is below:

We live in an era of repeated sexual panics and we live in an era where regulation around sex, justified by our fear of child sexual abuse and paedophiles, have become increasingly frequent and have seen increasing forms of extra judicial regulation so not only arrests and things like that but regulatory powers forcing people to register and actually just like the figure of the terrorist providing the justification for the Iraq war the figure of the paedophile and the child sex offender has acted in a way to extend the boundaries of the criminal law and to extend the kinds of powers of the state that we will accept directed against people we see as other or deviant.

Queer theories sometimes say that the sex offender is the new homosexual, not in the terms of the equivalence in terms of the acts but in the way the sex offender has become a way of policing sexual normativity and also denying the harms and the real sources of sexual danger within our society, so putting it on a kind of demonised outsider and not looking at the harms of dominant heterosexuality, not looking at the gendered harms of everyday heterosexuality, not looking at the main sources of harms to children sexually which often come from within family, friends, relationships. We have the figure of the dangerous sexual predator who is an outsider who means that we don’t take responsibility as a society for talking about sexual justice. We have then this division between children who are cast as completely asexual and adults and we cast that line very firmly at the age of 16 and we say that what causes sexual risk and harm to children is that they are innocent and asexual but what we know is that actually when it comes to the sources of harm to the children we don’t have to cast them as outside the realm of sexual curiosity sexual interest, it’s their vulnerability, their lack of access to power, their lack of access to knowledge and legitimate standing that sees them unable to engage as full citizens in the world and that sees them as vulnerable to sexual harm and threat.

So we see this in the family, we see them in the kinds of harms that are committed by children and adolescents against each other in heterosexual settings and we also see this in the isolation that young queers and queer curious children face, they don’t have access to cultural resources to support a non heterosexual imaginary

END OF SECTION

The speaker seems be saying fears about sexual harm to children by stranger offenders (who are more likely to be family/friends, yes) are exaggerated. Then she's saying that children are "cast as asexual" and that suppressing children's sexual curiosity and freedom isn't necessary to protect them - actually they are harmed by their lack of knowledge and inability to engage as full citizens.

I think this is nonsense - children are recognised as sexual and sexually curious (Adrian Mole anyone?) but boundaries are set on adults and children because they are vulnerable and that vulnerability is inherent in their lack of physical and mental maturity not in their lack of "access to power" and knowledge. It's not clear what she's saying but it sounds as if she wants to remove safeguards around children and is justifying that by downplaying sex offenders as a danger.

The speaker continues....

and the other side of that is what’s happened to the figure of the homosexual… in the last 20 years we’ve seen this demand on queer communities to grow up, to get married, get a mortgage and to leave behind people who can’t inhabit a very white middle class base of privilege and increasingly to leave behind trans members of our communities and we’ve seen incredible pressure put on that. We have this vision of an ideal married gay couple which is inherently exclusionary and we see that in Cameron’s support, not only for It Gets Better, but for equalising rights to marriage.
END OF SECTION
I don't think the Tories created the demand for gay marriage, they responded to it...

The speaker continues....

The other point that we really need to make is within this new reframing of sexuality is what happens to women and to female sexuality and Naomi’s Wolf presence at the Doughty Street Panel, apart from her terrible book, reminds me that the Labour Party of Tony Blair is the Labour Party of Jess Phillips and Rosie Duffield and the Labour Party of a liberal feminism that is also the feminism of Theresa May, a carceral white feminist politics that has married gay best friends and shopping buddies but still reacts with disavowal and disgust to expressions of sexual deviance and queerness and seeks to police obscenity, that seeks to police and victimise sex workers, that refuses to support the human rights of trans people and that only defines women and girls and increasingly only defines lesbians, in terms of our vulnerability to violence rather than having any kind of sexual agency.

END OF SECTION

This seems very simplistic. What level of "deviance" and obscenity are we supposed to embrace as feminists? Do lesbians who support Rosie Duffield not count as queer? What about black women with married gay friends who like shopping trips? Where do they fit in?

Answers on a postcard...

OP posts:
DidoLamenting · 08/12/2020 18:15

It's simplistic and nonsense.

CodenameVillanelle · 08/12/2020 18:17

What arrant idiocy

SadlyMissTaken · 08/12/2020 18:20

Is the stuff about sex offenders dodgy though? Or am I misinterpreting it? It's hard to understand what is actually being said...

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BlackWaveComing · 08/12/2020 18:22

I'm pretty content with policing sex offenders.

SadlyMissTaken · 08/12/2020 18:24

BlackWaveComing - that's it, in a nutshell isn't it?

OP posts:
PurpleHoodie · 08/12/2020 18:25

Firstly: Surely feminists of all colours want nonces and paedophiles locked up?

PurpleHoodie · 08/12/2020 18:26

Secondly. Sentences should be long.

DidoLamenting · 08/12/2020 18:27

@PurpleHoodie

Firstly: Surely feminists of all colours want nonces and paedophiles locked up?
I think you'll find people want that.
DrDavidBanner · 08/12/2020 18:30

Its been a tough day and I'm scratching my head a little bit but;

  1. What @purplehoodie said
  2. Why is she conflating homosexuality with sexual abuse
  3. We know sex offenders are just as likely to be known to us as strangers, why is she defining them differently

I don't know it is a confusing read. Tell me if I've got the wrong end of the stick

CaraDuneRedux · 08/12/2020 18:56

As soon as someone utters the phrase "carceral feminism" (references to it being "white" being extra icing on the pomo cake) you know you're listening to an apologist for male sexual violence.

ErrolTheDragon · 08/12/2020 19:00

Are 'white feminists' markedly more 'carceral' than other demographics?Hmm
Afaik when it comes to child abusers our attitudes are mainstream.

RoyalCorgi · 08/12/2020 19:00

This reply has been deleted

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PrawnofthePatriarchy · 08/12/2020 19:06

She's making excuses for male sexual violence and the exploitation of underage kids. She and Peter Tatchell have a lot in common I'd imagine.

And as soon as I hear the phrase carceral feminists I remind myself how shocking it is that women want sex offenders locked up.

SadlyMissTaken · 08/12/2020 19:16

I made a mistake, Tanya us assistant dean of equalities and lecturer in criminology
www.bbk.ac.uk/our-staff/profile/8858733/tanya-serisier
She has research interests in sexual violence and gendered violence

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nauticant · 08/12/2020 19:17

Why is she conflating homosexuality with sexual abuse

LGBTQP+. After all, LGBT was very effective for T.

allmywhat · 08/12/2020 19:23

that actually when it comes to the sources of harm to the children we don’t have to cast them as outside the realm of sexual curiosity sexual interest, it’s their vulnerability, their lack of access to power, their lack of access to knowledge and legitimate standing that sees them unable to engage as full citizens in the world and that sees them as vulnerable to sexual harm and threat

some questions I have about this drivel, that I think we can rely on Tanya not to give a straight answer to:

Children's:

  • lack of power to do what?
  • lack of access to what sort of knowledge?
  • lack of legitimate standing to... do what?

What does children "engaging as full citizens in the world" mean in this context?

Frenchdressing · 08/12/2020 19:31

What a load of rubbish that article is. I am very unsure what the motivation is but I am very uncomfortable with homosexuality and paedophilia having any kind of comparison.

allmywhat · 08/12/2020 19:36

By the way, OP, did you transcribe that? if so thank you very much!

This video of Queer Theory Jeopardy will help illuminate what she's talking about.

SadlyMissTaken · 08/12/2020 19:38

Yes I transcribed it as I needed to see it written down to try to make sense of it.

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InspiralCoalescenceRingdown · 08/12/2020 19:43

Not surprised to see queer theory mentioned.

InspiralCoalescenceRingdown · 08/12/2020 19:45

@allmywhat you beat me to it! Grin

SadlyMissTaken · 08/12/2020 19:55

Jeepers, that jeopardy video is really something. The students won't engage with what he's saying, they just scream and try to shout him down, yet what he's saying is crying out for real academic debate

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EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 08/12/2020 19:58

Doughty Street? That’s the same chamber as Jolyon Maugham.

SadlyMissTaken · 08/12/2020 20:01

the people in the video are criticising Doughty Street for holding an event celebrating Tony Blair's equalisation of the age of consent

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Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud · 08/12/2020 20:05

What the actual fudge?!

Is she really saying that "because more sexual violence occurs from people you know, the state is bad for wanting to monitor or track sex offenders"?!

Tell that to the parents of people who have been abused by a priest/ sports coach/ other individual who managed to get into a position of trust to become that "person they know".

And what is this flinging around of the phrase "white middle class".. "have a mortgage". Last time I checked the desire to own a house wasn't based on someone's skin pigmentation, what racist rubbish!

And for the record I think Rosie Duffield is fantastic. So if this speaker, who I seem to disagree with on everything, thinks that she is a malign force, then I would conclude that this is further evidence that we need more Rosies standing up for women and children.