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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Carceral white feminist politics and bogeyman sex offenders

50 replies

SadlyMissTaken · 08/12/2020 18:10

This is a video of an academic symposium on Youtube which was set up in response to an event Doughty Street Chambers was holding on Tony Blair . One of the contributors makes some points I find disturbing but am not sure if I'm misinterpreting as it's quite dense and difficult to follow. It's Tanya Serisier, who is a deputy dean of criminal law at Birkbeck. Her section starts at around 25.45 minutes in.

The main passage I find disturbing is below:

We live in an era of repeated sexual panics and we live in an era where regulation around sex, justified by our fear of child sexual abuse and paedophiles, have become increasingly frequent and have seen increasing forms of extra judicial regulation so not only arrests and things like that but regulatory powers forcing people to register and actually just like the figure of the terrorist providing the justification for the Iraq war the figure of the paedophile and the child sex offender has acted in a way to extend the boundaries of the criminal law and to extend the kinds of powers of the state that we will accept directed against people we see as other or deviant.

Queer theories sometimes say that the sex offender is the new homosexual, not in the terms of the equivalence in terms of the acts but in the way the sex offender has become a way of policing sexual normativity and also denying the harms and the real sources of sexual danger within our society, so putting it on a kind of demonised outsider and not looking at the harms of dominant heterosexuality, not looking at the gendered harms of everyday heterosexuality, not looking at the main sources of harms to children sexually which often come from within family, friends, relationships. We have the figure of the dangerous sexual predator who is an outsider who means that we don’t take responsibility as a society for talking about sexual justice. We have then this division between children who are cast as completely asexual and adults and we cast that line very firmly at the age of 16 and we say that what causes sexual risk and harm to children is that they are innocent and asexual but what we know is that actually when it comes to the sources of harm to the children we don’t have to cast them as outside the realm of sexual curiosity sexual interest, it’s their vulnerability, their lack of access to power, their lack of access to knowledge and legitimate standing that sees them unable to engage as full citizens in the world and that sees them as vulnerable to sexual harm and threat.

So we see this in the family, we see them in the kinds of harms that are committed by children and adolescents against each other in heterosexual settings and we also see this in the isolation that young queers and queer curious children face, they don’t have access to cultural resources to support a non heterosexual imaginary

END OF SECTION

The speaker seems be saying fears about sexual harm to children by stranger offenders (who are more likely to be family/friends, yes) are exaggerated. Then she's saying that children are "cast as asexual" and that suppressing children's sexual curiosity and freedom isn't necessary to protect them - actually they are harmed by their lack of knowledge and inability to engage as full citizens.

I think this is nonsense - children are recognised as sexual and sexually curious (Adrian Mole anyone?) but boundaries are set on adults and children because they are vulnerable and that vulnerability is inherent in their lack of physical and mental maturity not in their lack of "access to power" and knowledge. It's not clear what she's saying but it sounds as if she wants to remove safeguards around children and is justifying that by downplaying sex offenders as a danger.

The speaker continues....

and the other side of that is what’s happened to the figure of the homosexual… in the last 20 years we’ve seen this demand on queer communities to grow up, to get married, get a mortgage and to leave behind people who can’t inhabit a very white middle class base of privilege and increasingly to leave behind trans members of our communities and we’ve seen incredible pressure put on that. We have this vision of an ideal married gay couple which is inherently exclusionary and we see that in Cameron’s support, not only for It Gets Better, but for equalising rights to marriage.
END OF SECTION
I don't think the Tories created the demand for gay marriage, they responded to it...

The speaker continues....

The other point that we really need to make is within this new reframing of sexuality is what happens to women and to female sexuality and Naomi’s Wolf presence at the Doughty Street Panel, apart from her terrible book, reminds me that the Labour Party of Tony Blair is the Labour Party of Jess Phillips and Rosie Duffield and the Labour Party of a liberal feminism that is also the feminism of Theresa May, a carceral white feminist politics that has married gay best friends and shopping buddies but still reacts with disavowal and disgust to expressions of sexual deviance and queerness and seeks to police obscenity, that seeks to police and victimise sex workers, that refuses to support the human rights of trans people and that only defines women and girls and increasingly only defines lesbians, in terms of our vulnerability to violence rather than having any kind of sexual agency.

END OF SECTION

This seems very simplistic. What level of "deviance" and obscenity are we supposed to embrace as feminists? Do lesbians who support Rosie Duffield not count as queer? What about black women with married gay friends who like shopping trips? Where do they fit in?

Answers on a postcard...

OP posts:
KatySun · 08/12/2020 20:12

There is a disturbing thread in academic research which somehow sees defining sexual offences and the age of consent as inhibiting, rather than protecting, women.
There is clearly also a similar thread in academic research around children. It forgets - or willingly overlooks - why criminal justice responses to sexual offences and the age of consent came about.

I think this kind of postmodern queer theory is dangerous, to be honest. It is one thing to spout such drivel from a university position of security, quite another to live the reality of a society which has no legal protections for women and children and even more so, be in a position of poverty. This scholar needs some history lessons.

KatySun · 08/12/2020 20:13

*academic theory, rather than research, and queer theory in particular

TheGreatSloth · 08/12/2020 20:14

I have waded though it trying to work out what she is saying and my conclusion is that she is actually saying nothing. There is no argument. There is no coherent point of view. There appears to be no intellectual destination she has in mind. I have concluded from this that Birkbeck academic standards have sunk pretty low.

If her speech was an essay submitted to me, I would have to leave it ungraded. It's falling squarely within the "not even wrong" category.

Here is my analysis of what her words boil down to, with comments in []s. (My kids are fighting in the sitting room: I'd do anything to hide from them. Even read this shit.)

  1. In recent years regulation of sexuality has become increasingly prevalent. Not all of this is through criminal sanctions. Also "regulatory powers" are applied. This has become acceptable due to whipping up panic about paedophiles. [She doesn't give any analysis of what these powers are or who they are applied to - the only examples she gives are of powers applied to convicted sex offenders - this therefore does not support her assertion]
  1. Queer theorists say the demonisation of sexual offenders is a way of enforcing sexual norms. [Er, yes. Absolutely. One of those norms being that rape and sexual abuse of children are bad. All offences are about policing norms. The prohibition on murder is a norm]
  1. In fact the types of sexuality we normalise are often harmful. [Well, this is true, but pretty banal. Basic feminist point]
  1. Children are often sexually abused by family members, not outsiders. [This isn't relevant to what has gone before - yes some (very very many) paedophiles are family members. And if and when they are caught they are punished in exactly the ways she seems (at 1) to be saying are problematic. Not sure where this is trying to go]
  1. We say that children need to be protected because they are asexual. In fact it is their vulnerability and powerlessness that means they need to be protected. [Actually, I strongly agree with this. Some children - for instance the girls who were sexually abused by groomers in Rotherham - are not asexual. This does not mean they can consent to sex. They need protection whether or not they have sexual urges. At last an interesting point!]
  1. The problem is that children don't have cultural resources to support them in supporting a non-heterosexual imaginary. [Well yes, it's true that heterosexuality is seen as the norm, and that this causes huge suffering for children & young people whose sexuality is not heterosexual, but how does this follow from the previous point?]
  1. Homosexuals are increasingly being normalised into oppressive social norms, for instance gay marriage. [Muddled thinking. I agree with her that marriage is an oppressive institution (a patriarchal one, though of course she can't admit this). But that does not mean that some adults should be deprived of the legal right to embark on that particular form of oppression if they so wish]
  1. Feminists are really nasty. They victimise sex workers. [Of course, Jack the Ripper was a feminist] They are nasty to trans people. They define women purely in terms of vulnerability to sexual violence. [What? This is utter nonsense! We define women by biology!]

And, er, that's it. What a nitwit. (I did wonder which of Naomi Wolf's books she so hated, as an aside.)

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/12/2020 20:18

As soon as someone utters the phrase "carceral feminism" (references to it being "white" being extra icing on the pomo cake) you know you're listening to an apologist for male sexual violence.

YY.

SadlyMissTaken · 08/12/2020 20:23

@TheGreatSloth I've never come across this theory that all kids are asexual. Surely some are and some are the opposite - and both need to be protected by an age of consent and that has nothing to do with their "access to knowledge" and power? It's because their bodies and minds are too immature to cope with the consequences of sexual activity. In practice some will be sexually active but the laws are there to prevent the exploitation of their immaturity.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/12/2020 20:25

we say that what causes sexual risk and harm to children is that they are innocent and asexual

Who is "we"? Children are not psychologically equipped to consent to sex. It's not that anyone who isn't pomo-addled thinks of them of "asexual" in the queer theory way she means and I feel she's loading the term "innocent" with meaning.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/12/2020 20:26

X post

Asexual in its current meaning is not what people mean when they think about kids having sex.

CaraDuneRedux · 08/12/2020 20:41

I have no idea what queer theorists mean when they say "asexual" because it seems to encompass adults who actually quite like having sex.

I suspect it's something to do with the overlap between queer theory and porn as aspirational: many of them are so porn-addled they think "normal" = "up for it all the time with anyone in any orifice", and therefore anyone who exhibits any discrimination or boundaries when it comes to frequency, choice of partner or choice of act is "asexual", because in their books, to be properly "sexual" is to have no boundaries whatsoever.

Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud · 08/12/2020 20:45

[quote allmywhat]By the way, OP, did you transcribe that? if so thank you very much!

This video of Queer Theory Jeopardy will help illuminate what she's talking about.

[/quote]

Allmywhat and inspiral, thank you for posting this. Foucault arguing for the age of consent to be lowered to infancy?! Butler arguing that incest is not wrong?! Feeling pretty disturbed about queer theory being so loved by academia now.

What's really interesting in the video you shared is the audience's reaction. He's giving facts and listening to what people yelling out is really telling. I think that he got called a fascist at one point. People who like queer theory don't seem to like facts!

terryleather · 08/12/2020 20:59

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

HecatesCatsInXmasHats · 08/12/2020 21:03

This video of Queer Theory Jeopardy will help illuminate what she's talking about.

Wow. Thanks for sharing. The woman shouting "shame on you" and "do you agree with this?" & accusing him of transphobia and homophobia because he's reading out actual quotes from their favourite theorists supporting paedophilia. Their world is so upside down. Thanks for sharing.

HecatesCatsInXmasHats · 08/12/2020 21:04

Don't think I thanked you enough allmywhat

Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud · 08/12/2020 21:05

@Ereshkigalangcleg

As soon as someone utters the phrase "carceral feminism" (references to it being "white" being extra icing on the pomo cake) you know you're listening to an apologist for male sexual violence.

YY.

You are do right! I have looked it up (never heard of it before), and it's framed as "feminists who view policing as a solution to violence against women"

Uuuuummm.... Yep people who use that term seem pretty much like male violence apologists.

Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud · 08/12/2020 21:07

Exactly Hecates. Upside down.

Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud · 08/12/2020 21:10

Is it the same people/academics who argue that sex work is empowering? Do they ever argue both (age and SW) at the same time?

RoyalCorgi · 08/12/2020 21:18

I can't believe my comment was deleted. I said the same as everyone else is saying, though in slightly less oblique terms. But I wasn't rude. Still, we all know what's going on here, don't we?

SadlyMissTaken · 08/12/2020 21:24

I never heard the term carceral feminist either. I found this
www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2018/2/1/16952744/me-too-larry-nassar-judge-aquilina-feminism

Elizabeth Bernstein, a professor of women’s studies and sociology at Barnard, was the first to use the phrase “carceral feminism.” It appears in her 2007 article “The Sexual Politics of the ‘New Abolitionism.’”

She describes carceral feminism as failing to address the underlying economic conditions that exacerbate gendered violence.

I've never met a feminist who didn't want rapists locked up AND better economic conditions for women.

And what do the non-carceral feminists suggests should happen to violent sex offenders while they're waiting for the revolution?

OP posts:
dolorsit · 08/12/2020 21:27

I sometimes lurk on Lipstick Alley- the women over there do not pussyfoot around and are awesome.

HecatesCatsInXmasHats · 08/12/2020 21:31

what do the non-carceral feminists suggests should happen to violent sex offenders while they're waiting for the revolution?

I was wondering about that, is it decriminalisation? Honestly wouldn't surprise me.

Defaultname · 08/12/2020 22:43

@CaraDuneRedux

As soon as someone utters the phrase "carceral feminism" (references to it being "white" being extra icing on the pomo cake) you know you're listening to an apologist for male sexual violence.
Better a carceral than an arseral.
JohnRokesmith · 09/12/2020 06:08

@HecatesCatsInXmasHats

what do the non-carceral feminists suggests should happen to violent sex offenders while they're waiting for the revolution?

I was wondering about that, is it decriminalisation? Honestly wouldn't surprise me.

There’s a strand running through “left-wing” thought now which assumes criminals are necessarily victims, and punishment is therefore an unfair imposition which should be avoided wherever possible. This is, for instance, a basic assumption in most articles on the criminal-justice system in the Guardian. So, yes, decriminalisation is on the agenda, though most people who believe in this are rather cautious about actually saying this.
EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 09/12/2020 07:34

I remember a few years ago now, after the trial of T Wolf for beating up Maria Maclachlan at Speakers Corner, some of Wolf’s supporters saw a couple of Maria’s supporters heading towards the pub they were in, panicked at the sight of the scary feminists & called the police. Hmm

Does anyone remember what happened next?

HecatesCatsInXmasHats · 09/12/2020 08:52

There’s a strand running through “left-wing” thought now which assumes criminals are necessarily victims, and punishment is therefore an unfair imposition which should be avoided wherever possible. This is, for instance, a basic assumption in most articles on the criminal-justice system in the Guardian. So, yes, decriminalisation is on the agenda, though most people who believe in this are rather cautious about actually saying this.

I haven't read the Guardian for a few years now so haven't picked up on this. I wonder how they'd apply the paedophile as victim approach to someone like Jimmy Saville, who was facilitated by British institutions to conduct his crimes against hundreds of children.

ErrolTheDragon · 09/12/2020 09:04

It seems like a daft one dimensional way of thinking. Most people are able to look at the causes of criminality and violence, and want to address these issues at source, whilst also recognising the need to deal with offenders. If you want to perpetuate cycles of abuse, leave the abusers free to abuse and see how that goes. Better systems for children to get help and justice, especially for familial abuse would be good wouldn't it?

I still don't see what any of this has to do specifically with feminism really. I don't think 'white carceral feminism' is actually a thing at all, it's just a term invented to enable a 'Karen' dismissal.

HecatesCatsInXmasHats · 09/12/2020 09:12

I still don't see what any of this has to do specifically with feminism really. I don't think 'white carceral feminism' is actually a thing at all, it's just a term invented to enable a 'Karen' dismissal.

It does feel like another attempt to paint 'second wave' feminists (nb those who actually care about violence against women by men) and paint them as retrograde, out of touch. It's similar to the sex work debate. Yet the alternative is to give men more freedom to be violent sex abusers as far as I can see? NAMALT etc < tugs forelock, curtsies >

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