Please help me untangle why gender is such an issue

[nomorecrumbs]

I see myself as an old-school feminist, I believe that people should have equal opportunities regardless of their sex, and if people do not want to conform to gender stereotypes then more power to them. In fact I reject a lot of gender stereotyping as it’s socially, not biologically, prescriptive to me and I don’t think gender scripting should be pandered to.

Where I get muddled is trying to understand why trans people seemingly want to change their gender. In doing so, aren’t they conforming to societal notions of what it means to be a “woman” or a “man”? Why isn’t this just biologically based rather than socially, as to me the social aspect can be a load of bollocks?

E.g. I would love to ask a M2F trans why they “feel like they are more female”. Is it because they prefer pink, long hair, feminine clothes, traditional womanly traits? If so, why not stay a biological man and do these social things anyway? Is it fear of peer rejection? I don’t see why they have to just conform to gender stereotyping, basically, and wish any sex could just wear and do what they want without being pigeonholed into “genders”.

I’m concerned all this talk over gender is just reinforcing potentially damaging social stereotypes of what it means to appear male or female.

An analogy of why people reject this, in my opinion, is that it is like someone religious telling me that because I do not subscribe to religion, I will therefore be labelled as a member of the A-God religion, which others will define for me. It implicitly demands that others accept your belief system and categorisation, when that is exactly what their beliefs reject. Which is particularly ironic given the emphasis on "self-identification"

Exactly this, Polkadotgiraffe. As I was trying to think of an analogy, I thought of a religion where Vowing is an important thing and people need to be Vowed. I don’t subscribe to that hypothetical religion at all, so I’d really object to being called Unvowed because it’s including me in a religion I don’t believe and is irrelevant to me.

To me, it’s a cunning way to propagate the religion by including everyone in it whether they believe in it or not.

I see ‘Agender’ as just another of those Tumblr labels that some teens love - aromantic, agender, non-binary, etc etc. It’s nothing to do with me and of zero interest or relevance to me. People who are interested can use those labels but they’re meaningless to me and I don’t subscribe to the religion that contains them.

I've been reminded this evening by a social post of an excellent long read by Sarah Ditum, 'Six years in the gender wars', which touches upon much that's been discussed in this thread and is considered and detailed and well worth a read for anyone interested:

sarahditum.com/2018/09/10/six-years-in-the-gender-wars/

(As an aside: every time I think about cancelling my mumsnet account and cutting down on social media in general, I come across a thread like this, full of interesting, well-argued points that give me pause and I realise that I can't possibly cancel! Thank you to everyone taking the time to post and talk and share these resources. Much appreciated).

Thank you for posting that link Hecates.

It was long but Excellent.

I believe that it's crucial to teach the feminist theory for younger generations and for whoever the feminist theory has passed them by as something irrelevant. Young women now believe they are privileged for not being a transsexual. For that reason, I wrote a book called The Grumpy Guide to Radical Feminism so we can spread the word about the feminist theory and make it mainstream. People are asking for radical solutions on environmental issues, politics, education, but when it comes to women's rights, no radical feminism.

www.amazon.com/dp/B08N6T22KV?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

@Europilgrim

(As an aside: every time I think about cancelling my mumsnet account and cutting down on social media in general, I come across a thread like this, full of interesting, well-argued points that give me pause and I realise that I can't possibly cancel! Thank you to everyone taking the time to post and talk and share these resources. Much appreciated).

Agree, I learn so much here.

I'd like to add to the chorus of approval. I've learned loads in the short time I've been here.

Thank you xx.

@CatsCantCatchCriminals2

Thank you for posting that link Hecates.

It was long but Excellent.

Sarah Ditum's writing on this is excellent. She's also put her neck on the line to speak out over many years and I'm very grateful to her for that. I've watched the experiences she described unfolding and I hugely admire her bravery and composure.

I Definitely second that thought, hecates. Her very name seems to need a trigger warning for some people, which I find baffling, because I can’t see that she’s ever been anything but measured and reflective on this topic.

@Europilgrim

(As an aside: every time I think about cancelling my mumsnet account and cutting down on social media in general, I come across a thread like this, full of interesting, well-argued points that give me pause and I realise that I can't possibly cancel! Thank you to everyone taking the time to post and talk and share these resources. Much appreciated).

Every now and then I take a break from MN, but I always come back because of this. I've learnt lot here over the years.

@SophocIestheFox

I Definitely second that thought, hecates. Her very name seems to need a trigger warning for some people, which I find baffling, because I can’t see that she’s ever been anything but measured and reflective on this topic.

It's similar to the response Helen Lewis gets, I'm assuming HL must have commissioned some of SD's work for the New Statesman when she was Deputy Editor, and Glosswitch too?

Sarah' s peice is brilliant, this in particular struck me:

"sexism being what it is, the practical consequence of treating transwomen as women is that the male interest is placed first.

The female right to self-organise comes after the male right to be treated as a woman. The female right to critique femininity comes after the male right to claim femininity. The female right to describe your body and what that body means under patriarchy comes after the male right not to be offended by descriptions of female bodies."

I recently went on a training course where they promoted genderism, and even had the genderbread person. During the course, the trainer - a transwoman - talked about being ridiculed in public. Receptionists gossiping and giggling, everyone looking, that kind of thing. Then it struck me what's at the heart of this ideology. In trying not to be mocked, TRAs are trying to push their thinking on everyone, so we all state our pronouns and explore our genders and actively fight for the TRA cause (they told us we need to be active allies). They want to be accepted, but it's grown into 'you will think like I think; you will promote that way of thinking until it consumes everything'.