Please help me untangle why gender is such an issue

[nomorecrumbs]

I see myself as an old-school feminist, I believe that people should have equal opportunities regardless of their sex, and if people do not want to conform to gender stereotypes then more power to them. In fact I reject a lot of gender stereotyping as it’s socially, not biologically, prescriptive to me and I don’t think gender scripting should be pandered to.

Where I get muddled is trying to understand why trans people seemingly want to change their gender. In doing so, aren’t they conforming to societal notions of what it means to be a “woman” or a “man”? Why isn’t this just biologically based rather than socially, as to me the social aspect can be a load of bollocks?

E.g. I would love to ask a M2F trans why they “feel like they are more female”. Is it because they prefer pink, long hair, feminine clothes, traditional womanly traits? If so, why not stay a biological man and do these social things anyway? Is it fear of peer rejection? I don’t see why they have to just conform to gender stereotyping, basically, and wish any sex could just wear and do what they want without being pigeonholed into “genders”.

I’m concerned all this talk over gender is just reinforcing potentially damaging social stereotypes of what it means to appear male or female.

Positrans - I think a lot of what you're saying makes sense but where does that leave the increasing number of people who claim to be trans, but with no dysphoria and no desire to change anything physically?

@nauticant

Not everyone has a sense of their gender identity mind - some people are agender

It means this:

Some people don't believe in gender identity. For these people we apply to them the gender identity "agender". Everyone can have whatever gender identity they want but they must accept at least one of them.

@nauticant if you have a gender identity, you don't have the luxury of not believing in gender identity.

"Agender" means lacking a gender identity - if you don't have one, that's the word for not having one.

@christinarossetti19

"There isn't an 'understanding complex human behaviours' course"

• There is. It's called psychology

Agender means lacking a gender identity - if you don't have one, that's the word for not having one.

On whose say-so?

"Agender" means lacking a gender identity - if you don't have one, that's the word for not having one.

With respect, that is the word used by people who do believe in gender identity. It is similar to calling people heathens or infidels for not believing in god. You have to start from their perspective, and god based model of the world, to fit into their box.

Positrans would you mind explaining what it is about your gender identify that makes you sure you're female. Could you describe what female feels like?

2% driven by actual gender dysphoria.*

*made up figures

Hard numbers are uncertain in this area but the estimate is that about 0.01% of the population of the UK have gender dysphoria. If 0.3% of the population is trans, this means that about one in 30 trans people have gender dysphoria. In that case, who are the other 29 people?

Explaining what gender identity feels like to someone who doesn't have one, is like explaining what red looks like to someone who was born blind. I'm not really sure there's a way to do it.

Sometimes people get it if you ask them to imagine their brain transplanted into the body of the opposite sex, so would you feel like a woman inside a man's body or a man? But completely agender people may still not really get that.

Thanks for all your replies, wow there are a lot of opinions on this! For some reason my username isn't available, I think it's because I'm on another device now.

I can start to understand why someone would want to change their physical looks, and their hormones. If they want a vagina rather than a penis, that's somewhat understandable to me (though obviously I can't relate to feeling like you should have a different physical body).

However, I can't relate to someone who feels like they want to change their gender. What biological components are involved in gender? I see it as entirely socially derived, but maybe I am "agender" and don't put much emphasis on gender as part of my identity.

People live in a gendered society. They can't just leave it and few people (likely including yourself) possess the ability to be utterly free from it. It's in all of us.
Furthermore, trans people are helping the subversion of gender by proving that it's not so steadfast and unimpeachable. Transitioning from a gender to another shows that gender is just a label or collection of ideas and actions and not some deep innate thing.

@LetsSplashMummy

"Agender" means lacking a gender identity - if you don't have one, that's the word for not having one.

With respect, that is the word used by people who do believe in gender identity. It is similar to calling people heathens or infidels for not believing in god. You have to start from their perspective, and god based model of the world, to fit into their box.

That's not a valid analogy. A god is a supernatural being - there is no scientific evidence for the existence of such a being. Gender identity is a well studied scientific fact. You could make the same argument about depression - someone could say "I've never had depression and don't believe it exists". They could also say that all claims of depression are anecdotal and are unprovable. Science ignores such people and gets on with the job of helping pole with depression.

would you feel like a woman inside a man's body or a man?

But what does a woman feel like? You still haven't answered this. To me what you're describing seems like discomfort with one's body, feeling out of place. Because a male person can't innately know what it feels like to be a woman. Unless, that is, you view women through the prism of unreconstructed gender stereotypes e.g. gentler, more passive, liking pink etc I'd really like to know what female attributes your gender identity aligns with?

Gender identity is a well studied scientific fact

You need to do better than that.

So now am wondering why if genderism is an ideological belief or a mental health condition akin to depression. I had understood that the latter is not popular with generists.

Positrans I await your links to the incontrovertible scientific evidence that will persuade me there is more to gender ideology than a belief system.

And I still would like to know what this all means for people WITHOUT dysphoria. This is the most puzzling part for me.

@nauticant

Gender identity is a well studied scientific fact

You need to do better than that.

Yes

I’d like evidence of the ‘well studied’ and ‘scientific’ and ‘fact’ bits please and thank you

I'd be keen to know what being female mentally "feels" like too.

I know what it physically feels like to be a woman, it's painful once a month, my skin is softer and my voice higher than DH's and I can't lift like my brother can but I'm not sure I am mentally aligned with notions of femininity. I feel like I relate to both masculine and feminine stereotypes of behaviour depending on what I am doing at the time.

My husband has softer skin than me....hmmph..

[quote jadelou85]@christinarossetti19

"There isn't an 'understanding complex human behaviours' course"

• There is. It's called psychology[/quote] Psychology is the study of human behaviour, is it not, complex or otherwise?

Having been on a psychology course or having a psychology qualification doesn't automatically give anyone more insight into every variation of human behaviour. It's living and reflecting on life that does that.

Across the world and throughout history people seem to have managed very well in understanding what sex they are and what gender roles they are expected to conform to.

It's dangerous pseuco-science about 'gender identity' that has caused the muddling in many quarters, not recognising what sex you are and what your society expects from that sex.

How can any man claim to “feel” like a woman, or have a “female gender identity”?
Firstly, being a woman is NOT a feeling, it’s XX chromosomes and a female body, neither of which a man can ever have.
Secondly, women themselves do not have some mysterious “feeling” of being women - we do not identify as women, and we have nothing in common with each other except our physical bodies and our oppression by men. We simply ARE women by virtue of being born as one.
So in what possible way does a trans person claim a female identity, when such a thing does not exist?

the feeling that I was one of the girls

Hi I know there's been a lot of questions but this part jumped out to me. I have never had a feeling that I was 'one of the girls'. I don't understand what this means. Can you explain what made you feel like 'one of the girls'? What things made you think "yep, that's me"? Thanks.

Gender identity is a well studied scientific fact.

There is very little beyond studying the differences between people who have a gender identity and those that do not and even these findings are few and far between (and often overlook sexuality as a confounding factor).

There are much more compelling and definite brain differences between Buddhist monks and everyone else than there are between gender identities. This only proves the existence of people who believe in Buddhism - and that this belief and lifestyle can change your brain - it doesn't prove the truth of religion itself.

I have never had a feeling that I was 'one of the girls'
Me neither! Although I do have a male friend who prefers the company of women. I don't think this really explains much.

Gender identity is so well studied that we know it is strongly coupled to restrictive assumptions that a particular society makes about the sexes

We know that trans identity is much more common in societies with rigid sex defined roles

It's man made concept. Not a fact of nature

Ergo, the solution is to unmake it. Not to force people to comply

In terms of 'scientific research and facts' that support gender identity, the closest we have is when 'gender identity disorder' was a classification in the DSM, as it was up to 2013.

It was then eschewed in favour of the term 'gender dysphoria'. in the DSM5. Whatever you think of the DSM frameworks, if you're going to talk about gender and 'scientific facts' you can't really discount this behemoth of a publication.

Thinking about Kiera Bell's case last week and the shocking lack of basic science at GIDs eg basic record keeping trying to run a psychological service based on vague, out dated terms like 'gender identity' led to a safeguarding disgrace, ruining many young lives.