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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jo Maugham

582 replies

GoodbyePorpoiseSpit · 04/12/2020 20:51

I follow Jo on Twitter and feel that the GoodLaw project is a needed and good thing when it comes to holding ministers/gov spending to account. He seems to take refuge in the rule of law and facts .... so, so WHY after the recent ruling on puberty blockers is he tweeting and retweeting Trans folk who are sharing (in emotive and extra detail) their experience post ruling. What his deal?? What’s his skin in the game? Looked through some old tweets and he really seems to have come down hard against women’s rights.
Ca anyone explain his deal here?

OP posts:
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VulvaPerson · 07/12/2020 17:02

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

JM is skating on some pretty thin ice around the judges. So did they ignore the evidence or were too stupid to understand it?
Ooh thats not good at all

Also where is this endless evidence they claim exists? Surely the Tavi could have got hold of that easily enough. That they didn't, and nor did mermaids or stonewall, speaks for itself really.

VulvaPerson · 07/12/2020 17:04

Him claiming the judges had this loads of evidence..and ignored it (because bigot?) is just ridiculous.

DrudgeJedd · 07/12/2020 17:14

He seemed particularly cross that child S in my post above ^^ was not allowed to give evidence in person in addition to the written evidence that I quoted.

OldCrone · 07/12/2020 18:34

@DrudgeJedd

He seemed particularly cross that child S in my post above ^^ was not allowed to give evidence in person in addition to the written evidence that I quoted.
S in his witness statement said: “13. … I haven’t really thought about parenthood – I have been asked about it by the gender identity specialist I have mentioned but I just have no idea what me in the future is going to think. I haven’t had a romantic relationship and it’s just not a thing that is really on my radar at the moment.”"

How did he think this was going to help the defence? This child has simply demonstrated that they are incapable of giving informed consent to medical treatment which will leave them infertile and with impaired sexual function.

Any further testimony from this child would simply strengthen the claimants' case.

HecatesCatsInXmasHats · 07/12/2020 18:36

There's such a disconnect isn't there? What that child is saying to me is that they don't have a clue what they're signing up to.

Apollo440 · 07/12/2020 18:40

Yes how the fuck does he think that will help his case? The child clearly demonstrates that they haven't a clue which is the very point. Clueless numpties.

OldCrone · 07/12/2020 18:47

I think the TRAs have managed to convince themselves that a 13-year-old child saying that they never want children and have no interest in sex proves that they are asexual. Whereas to most reasonable people this is just a 13-year-old child indicating that they are still a child.

dianebrewster · 07/12/2020 18:52

@OldCrone

I think the TRAs have managed to convince themselves that a 13-year-old child saying that they never want children and have no interest in sex proves that they are asexual. Whereas to most reasonable people this is just a 13-year-old child indicating that they are still a child.
I think you are spot on.
EdgeOfACoin · 07/12/2020 19:08

Here's the problem with living in an echo chamber and insisting on 'no debate'. You get absolutely no practice in defending your position. You also don't get to see which arguments others find persuasive and which ones they view as completely nutty.

I imagine a confused child distressed about whether they are a boy or a girl "works" as an argument to an extent, because you would have to have a heart of stone not to care about them. The problem is, when the debate moves on to the long-term effects of puberty blockers etc, you can't just keep holding up a picture of a sobbing child to say "look! Stop hurting these children!"

Yes, we know they are desperately unhappy. However, many people consider that putting these children on a path to sterilisation, serious but ultimately cosmetic surgery and a lifetime of hormones a very drastic step in combating that unhappiness. You're going to have to come up with better evidence than a 13-year-old kid who hasn't given his future romantic encounters much thought.

ListeningQuietly · 07/12/2020 19:24

A kid at my gym, while changing for swimming with his mum
proudly told all present that
when I grow up I want to be a girl
he was 4
he is now 15 and luckily his mum realised that lots of little kids say daft things

ListeningQuietly · 07/12/2020 19:26

A question for the hive mind

how many of the children referred to the Tavi are first born?

just that is there possibly a link between unrealistic parental expectations of childrearing
and referral?

Winesalot · 07/12/2020 19:47

I have noticed today on twatter that activists are now saying that it is forcing heteronormativity on them to discuss fertility as being a significant factor in their lives.

Errrr! ????

ListeningQuietly · 07/12/2020 19:50

Cos gay people cannot want kids ?????
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruth_Davidson

archery2 · 07/12/2020 20:46

The first indication in public that a 13 year old trans child would be taking part in the judicial review came in Sue Evans's "case update" dated 7 September. She wrote:

"There has been a significant amount of interest from groups that have wanted to become formally involved in the case. Transgendertrend has been allowed to participate, as has a 13 year old trans-child. Mermaids and Stonewall have been refused permission to get involved."

But two days before the case was heard, Jolyon seems to have broken the news that, in fact, the child's request had been refused. He wrote on twitter on 5 October: "The case against the Tavistock... will hear no submissions from trans kids. They, and charities representing them, asked to be heard but were denied all voice."

Then with the judgment of 1 December came the description of the 13 year old, given the name S, as "a 13 year old trans boy who is on the waiting list at GIDS" and is now a GenderGP customer. (para 87). In the judges' order refusing permission to appeal (at Ground 9), it was explained that S had applied to intervene "to ensure that the voice of the child was heard" but it turned out that he had already made a statement, using a different initial, which had been included in the evidence by the defendant, but using a different initial letter for his name. But S had not disclosed this. The judge commented: "The voice of the child, and this particular child, was heard."

Is it a conventional legal thing to talk about 'hearing voices', or should we connect Jolyon's 5 Oct complaint of 'all voice' being denied, and the judge's retort that the child did indeed have a voice? And did Jolyon's complaint on 5 October simply reflect things that any lawyer could have known anyway, about who was intervening and who wasn't - even though it wasn't part of the news reporting at that time - or would it be because he was involved in the application to intervene, or was in touch with those who were?

I honestly don't know the answers!

RedToothBrush · 07/12/2020 21:15

@ListeningQuietly

A question for the hive mind

how many of the children referred to the Tavi are first born?

just that is there possibly a link between unrealistic parental expectations of childrearing
and referral?

DH raised the question of when in the year are they born. Is there a split throughout the year or is there an over representation of summer born children?
RealityNotEssentialism · 08/12/2020 07:11

Is it a conventional legal thing to talk about 'hearing voices', or should we connect Jolyon's 5 Oct complaint of 'all voice' being denied, and the judge's retort that the child did indeed have a voice?

Yes, it’s a fairly common expression by judges, especially in cases involving children. I don’t think the judges were in any way responding to Jolyon’s social media posts. Judges aren’t allowed to be on Twitter and I suspect they stay well away.

RealityNotEssentialism · 08/12/2020 07:15

And did Jolyon's complaint on 5 October simply reflect things that any lawyer could have known anyway, about who was intervening and who wasn't - even though it wasn't part of the news reporting at that time - or would it be because he was involved in the application to intervene, or was in touch with those who were?

I presume Mermaids themselves had publicised that their application to intervene had been denied. I mean I guess they might have instructed JM to represent them but because his specialism is tax rather than judicial review and human rights, that would be an odd choice of barrister. I suspect he was just repeating what was already in the public domain.

DickKerrLadies · 08/12/2020 08:20

how many of the children referred to the Tavi are first born?

DH raised the question of when in the year are they born. Is there a split throughout the year or is there an over representation of summer born children?

Both interesting questions. However, as the Tavi couldn't even be bothered to look at their patients records to see how many had an ASD diagnosis, I don't hold out much hope that they've collected any other data about their patients.

RedToothBrush · 08/12/2020 08:38

@DickKerrLadies

how many of the children referred to the Tavi are first born?

DH raised the question of when in the year are they born. Is there a split throughout the year or is there an over representation of summer born children?

Both interesting questions. However, as the Tavi couldn't even be bothered to look at their patients records to see how many had an ASD diagnosis, I don't hold out much hope that they've collected any other data about their patients.

That was exactly my response to him.

There are so many unanswered questions that stem from the administration of these drugs being unmonitored.

PopperUppleton · 08/12/2020 09:11

I thought quite a few children appeared to be one of several same sex children in a family, I've read things about always wanting a girl after several boys etc. So perhaps not necessarily firstborn

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 08/12/2020 09:33

Just had a look at the crowdfunder and I'm now confused.

The stated lawyers for the fund are the "Good Law Project", which means all money raised (minus crowdfunder site cut) goes to them?

But in addition it says at the bottom of the blurb that "In common with our general practice we will retain ten percent of the fund to help cover our running costs"

So 10% of the money raised will not be used for the stated purpose, but just as extra profit?

merrymouse · 08/12/2020 10:34

So 10% of the money raised will not be used for the stated purpose, but just as extra profit?

I would imagine it goes towards covering general overheads.

I think that is fair.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 08/12/2020 10:47

@merrymouse

So 10% of the money raised will not be used for the stated purpose, but just as extra profit?

I would imagine it goes towards covering general overheads.

I think that is fair.

But I don't understand why it has been split out like that. The site states:

you will use all funds raised in a Successful Campaign to pay directly and solely for fees and/or costs associated with the Case as described on the Case Page

It is unclear whether "running costs" count as case costs. If they do, then why has he split it out like that, if not then he shouldn't be doing it at all? (I also think changing the case the money is to be used for is a tad dodgy as well...)

VulvaPerson · 08/12/2020 12:15

@HecatesCatsInXmasHats

There's such a disconnect isn't there? What that child is saying to me is that they don't have a clue what they're signing up to.
Thats how it comes across to me to..how on earth he thought that more from this child would help, I really do not know. Mind, he has been thoroughly sucked in by all the 'emotions matter more than facts' stuff so I can kind of see it. That childs testimony is showing off one of the main problems with the whole thing IMO. That age, not many care about future children or relationships and such. Even if they understood (which it seems most/all dont) I am not sure it would be right, I remember myself at that age, and honestly, right up until I was about 20 I was adamant I never ever wanted kids and that was something for other people, certainly not me.

This is even before getting into the health problems and such too.

VulvaPerson · 08/12/2020 12:20

@OldCrone

I think the TRAs have managed to convince themselves that a 13-year-old child saying that they never want children and have no interest in sex proves that they are asexual. Whereas to most reasonable people this is just a 13-year-old child indicating that they are still a child.
Much better way of putting it, I attempted but couldn't word it right.

This might get me deleted, so am ready, however I find the contrast quite stark, the assume transkids are assexual, yet so many adult trans people (seemingly transwomen, more than transmen) appear to be hyper sexual.

Thats not me saying all transwomen of course, but a fair few of the older transitioners certainly come across that way to me. Of course 'nontrans people' can be hyper sexual also and its not necessarily a bad thing either, however, the assumption that kids are asexual, in order to shove them onto blockers (and create a sort of self fulfilling prophecy really) is..odd to say the least.