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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jo Maugham

582 replies

GoodbyePorpoiseSpit · 04/12/2020 20:51

I follow Jo on Twitter and feel that the GoodLaw project is a needed and good thing when it comes to holding ministers/gov spending to account. He seems to take refuge in the rule of law and facts .... so, so WHY after the recent ruling on puberty blockers is he tweeting and retweeting Trans folk who are sharing (in emotive and extra detail) their experience post ruling. What his deal?? What’s his skin in the game? Looked through some old tweets and he really seems to have come down hard against women’s rights.
Ca anyone explain his deal here?

OP posts:
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merrymouse · 08/12/2020 18:55

If I were trying to argue that puberty blockers were just a 'pause' and were completely reversible, I'd avoid saying that only people who might want to take them are trans.

VulvaPerson · 08/12/2020 19:56

@sultanasofa

I'm incredibly proud of the UK judiciary for making these courageous, evidence-based judgements.

The rest of the world is watching. I doubt the impact will be limited to England and Wales.

I'm incredibly proud of the UK judiciary for making these courageous, evidence-based judgements.

This part is so scary to me tbh. Why on earth should deciding medical ethics and safegarding apply to all children, based on facts, be deemed courageous?! Its really a terrible state of affairs.

nickymanchester · 08/12/2020 20:22

@nauticant

"The first is we must ignore UK law and do what others do."

[...]

This is startling stuff from a QC.

Not really; barristers (and even QCs) do come out with this sort of stuff all the time. Sometimes it is even very well done.

For example, there was a case that was reported a few weeks ago that had very similar issues. It concerned a 15 year old girl who the court held to be Gillick competent and was a Jehovah's Witness, who was refusing a blood transfusion. The Court held that, despite the girl's opposition, the transfusion should take place. This is the full judgment:-

Re X (A Child) (2020) EWHC 3003 (Fam)

It was a distressing case where the girl in question had, apparently, only a matter of hours, rather than days, left before the situation became critical.

The judge who heard the case (Sir James Munby - who is a seriously impressive judge by any standards) could only give a short judgment due to the time constraints. Nevertheless he did mention the very powerful arguments made by counsel for the girl against the blood transfusion which referenced a decision of the Canadian Supreme Court:-

[8] Mr Brady's argument, which is powerful and demands much fuller response than I can give it today, is that to impose this form of treatment on X is to impinge impermissibly upon her autonomy as, I emphasise, a Gillick competent child of almost 16. He submits that the law has moved on, not merely in consequence of the Human Rights Act 1998, but in more general developments, so that the position which had seemingly been reached by the Court of Appeal in the two cases ... in the early 1990s no longer reflects the law as it is. Those are powerful arguments which deserve full analysis and proper consideration. Unhappily, we do not have time for that today in the light of Dr C's medical evidence. I will return to the consequences of this shortly.

[...]

[15] Mr Brady, in an enormously helpful and detailed skeleton argument for which I thank him, has put together arguments suggesting that this view of the law is in need of urgent re-analysis and review, partly in the light of the Human Rights Act 1998, partly in the light of more general recent legal developments, and partly in the light of the very important decision of the Supreme Court of Canada to which he powerfully drew my attention: AC v Manitoba [2009] SCC 30, [2009] 2 SCR 181. These are arguments which require to be dealt with, but it is quite impossible for me, within the timescale that Dr C's evidence sets out, to engage properly with these arguments today. It seems to me that I have no realistic choice, but to take the law as being that which was laid down by the Court of Appeal in the two cases I have mentioned, the best part of 30 years ago, and also in the more recent decision of the Court of Appeal in 2012 in Re G (Education: Religious Upbringing) (2012) EWCA Civ 1233, (2013) 1 FLR 677, where, as it happens, I gave the major judgment.

In para [8] above:-

"so that the position which had seemingly been reached by the Court of Appeal in the two cases ... in the early 1990s"

One of those two cases was Re W which was also relied upon by the High Court in the Keira Bell case and was one of the grounds of appeal used by Tavistock.

It seems to be that Sir James James Munby is suggesting that perhaps this needs to be looked at again and that, perhaps, it needs to be looked at as to whether a court should respect a Gillick competent child refusing life-saving treatment. However, given that he decided that the girl should be given the transfusion despite her refusal it isn't clear on which side of the fence he sits.

Personally, I'm totally on the side of the part of the judgment in the case of Re W where Nolan LJ said that the duty of the court is to ensure so far as it can that children survive to attain the age of 18 at which an individual is free to do with his life what he wishes.

So, the law in this area is evolving and is certainly not static.

Just going totally off topic, Sir James Munby was also the judge in the Court of Appeal case concerning the Owens divorce in 2018. This mumsnet AIBU thread from the time:-

Refused Divorce WTF

Sir James has a history of questioning the legal status quo and he made it abundantly clear what he thought of the law in his judgment at the Court of Appeal before it went to the Supreme Court:-

Owens v Owens (2017) EWCA Civ 182

[2] The question for us is whether, within the meaning of CPR 52.11(3)(a), the wife can establish that in coming to this decision the judge was "wrong" – in which case we can interfere. If, for whatever reasons, we find ourselves unable to interfere, the question inevitably arises whether, in 2017, the law is in a remotely satisfactory condition?

He noted that the law continually needs to be updated:-

[41] So, in my judgment, when [the 1969 Act], uses the words "cannot reasonably be expected", that objective test has to be addressed by reference to the standards of the reasonable man or woman on the Clapham omnibus: not the man on the horse-drawn omnibus in Victorian times which Lord Bowen would have had in mind (see Healthcare at Home Ltd v The Common Services Agency [2014] UKSC 49, [2014] PTSR 1081, para 2), not the man or woman on the Routemaster clutching their paper bus ticket on the day in October 1969 when the 1969 Act received the Royal Assent, but the man or woman on the Boris Bus with their Oyster Card in 2017.

So, overall, while there do appear to be powerful arguments in favour of under 16s being given increased autonomy in these sorts of areas, at the moment, the courts in this country are not persuaded by them.

However, it seems that if society does change its position to such an extent that trans rights and self ID etc become accepted generally then the courts are likely to change their position.

mollscroll · 08/12/2020 20:33

Why is a QC bemoaning the fact that trans people were not allowed to give evidence on this case ? This case is about two specific parties - it’s not a consultation. Women’s groups don’t give evidence in murder trials because VAWG is a thing. The case is about the specifics of the case.

In this case the Tavi lost because they clearly failed on every medical safeguarding protocol you can think of. What would trans kids have to say about Tavi record keeping or capture by ideologists? Nothing. All they can do is tell their sad stories and hope to win some sympathy but that is not what a court is for.

JM knows this - and is being disingenuous at best. Some of his recent tweets are unhinged.

mollscroll · 08/12/2020 20:35

@merrymouse

If I were trying to argue that puberty blockers were just a 'pause' and were completely reversible, I'd avoid saying that only people who might want to take them are trans.
This is a very good point.

Too clever for JM to grasp though Wink

OldCrone · 08/12/2020 21:27

The first is that (unless overturned) it will leave the United Kingdom as an international outlier on the use of puberty blockers. The World Health Organisation, for example, talks of the need to depathologise trans health: "trans-related and gender diverse identities are not conditions of mental ill health, and classifying them as such can cause enormous stigma" and goes on to add that "Inclusion of gender incongruence in the ICD should ensure transgender people’s access to gender-affirming health care."

If transgenderism is 'depathologised', then surely it needs no medical treatment because it's not a medical condition. How can something be simultaneously not a medical condition but also in need of medical treatment? Are there any other conditions to which this applies?

VulvaPerson · 09/12/2020 01:40

@OldCrone

The first is that (unless overturned) it will leave the United Kingdom as an international outlier on the use of puberty blockers. The World Health Organisation, for example, talks of the need to depathologise trans health: "trans-related and gender diverse identities are not conditions of mental ill health, and classifying them as such can cause enormous stigma" and goes on to add that "Inclusion of gender incongruence in the ICD should ensure transgender people’s access to gender-affirming health care."

If transgenderism is 'depathologised', then surely it needs no medical treatment because it's not a medical condition. How can something be simultaneously not a medical condition but also in need of medical treatment? Are there any other conditions to which this applies?

Yup, yet another part of the whole thing where transactivists make genuinely no sense. Arguing points the total opposite to each other simultaneously..
sashagabadon · 09/12/2020 08:22

I’m not convinced citing the WHO instills great confidence any more. What they say and do is not infallible. Covid has taught us that. WHO can make mistakes and not properly research things just like anyone else. They relied on information from the Chinese gov that Covid was not transferred from human to human for some time. Turns out that was not actually the case.
I wonder if maybe the U.K. is actually leading the world in the use of PB’s rather than an outlier. And the WHO will eventually follow suit?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/12/2020 08:41

Maya Forstater has written an interesting thread about the crowdfunder twitter.com/MForstater/status/1336450415362236416?s=19

+++++++++++++++++++

So what is going on with the Good Law Project crowdfunder?

Remember the initial launch was about a 14 year old transboy suing the NHS for delays - it raised about about £20K in the first days but has had a big boost since the Keira Bell judgment

The Good Law Project's crowdfunder is unusual.

Usually crowdjustice campaigns have a 'case owner' who is the individual claimant and a law firm who gets the money directly.

In this case both the case owner and the 'lawyers' are the Good Law Project

Is this allowed?

Normally to raise funds on crowdjustice you have have a lawyer instructed, or be working with a registered org "such as a charity".

The Good Law Project isn't a charity.

Its a company limited by guarantee.

So yes it is a "registered organisation" ... but its not clear that anyone who sets up a registered company for £12 can use it to raise money for themselves on CrowdJustice.

It would undermine the trust in the legal crowdfunding system if you could do that.

Crowd Justice usually require fundraising to be attached to a particular case but will transfer funds to a "general legal project" at their sole discretion

They usually require that you provide an accurate summary of the issues in the case, but that requirement seemed to be waived here.

It has not been at all clear what this money is being raised for

The Good Law Project has case criteria, but none of this says anything about issues of medical consent and children.

When selecting other projects they will consult with unnamed "other organisations"

Perhaps Gender GP owned by Harland International Ltd a 'global organisation which provides advocacy services for LGBTQI across the world' ?

@DanialWebb digs into Gender GP's ownership t.co/PrBoPE36gL

As @BarbaraRich_law notes they recently launched a "charitable fund" and then quickly renamed it when that got some scrutiny

t.co/TojwXyCR9p

Maugham has now appointed Molly Mulready a parent of a transexual child to convene an advisory group to decide what to spend the money on.

1... this is highly irregular for CrowdJustice campaigns (where you normally decide how to spend the money first)

2...the experience of Susie Green at Mermaids suggests that parents of a child having life altering treatment may not be best placed to manage broad policy advocacy

Crowd Justice are taking a lot of risks by waiving all the normal rules they set for legal crowdfunders here.

To @BluskyeAllison they said her case page was unnecessarily inflammatory about matters unconnected to her case.

For the Good Law Projects campaign they allowed Jolyon to call me a provocateur whose case was about "the right to misgender" (it isnt)

And also the usual stuff about an imaginary "astro-turfed coalition" funded by "by investment from anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-assisted dying US hate groups"

Much of CrowdJustice's model rests on the trust we place on the legal profession.

CrowdJustice doesn't assess the merits of the case, the lawyers do that.

Crowdjustice don't have to track how the money is used because it is government by the lawyer-client relationship.

Here they have given up those safeguards and are allowing a limited company to raise money for a child's case. Who is protecting the interests of the claimant - a child - Why did their parents not insist that the funds raised in their name went directly to their lawyers?

How can they be sure that the Good Law project is representing the interests of their child and not Gender GP, or whatever other undeclared organisations are driving this project?

So many questions... this seems like another example of how organisations abandon their usual rules and safeguards when confronted with the idea of trans children.

As the Keira Bell case highlighted, all children should be protected by these safeguards.

merrymouse · 09/12/2020 08:44

I wonder if maybe the U.K. is actually leading the world in the use of PB’s rather than an outlier. And the WHO will eventually follow suit?

I suspect this issue isn't a priority for them, given the number of people in the world who don't have access to basic medical care.

This is an area where the UK is different to the rest of the world, because of the structure of our healthcare system - the judicial review is taking place because a public body is involved, and Keira was able to access this care in the first place because it was provided by the NHS.

DrudgeJedd · 09/12/2020 09:04

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1336450415362236416?s=19 The Good Law Project makes £££ for Crowdjustice so I'm not surprised they're allowed to ignore the rules. I wonder if this ambiguity about what they are actually doing with the funds is why Maugham has inserted another parent as a buffer between himself and the crowdfunder?

mollscroll · 09/12/2020 09:05

Also I like to think the spirit of the Enlightenment lives on here in a way it certainly doesn’t in America. Of course it should be Scotland leading the charge but they are too busy shadow boxing those dreadful conservative (small c) people down south to notice how oppressive this ideology is.

HecatesCatsInXmasHats · 09/12/2020 09:16

Or as an interesting op ed put it the other day, they've been content to allow the focus to fall on the gender issue because there are other, pretty insurmountable, social problems that are not being dealt with Moll.

FromAMNtter · 09/12/2020 12:42

Just leaving this here.
Name changed as I have tweeted

FromAMNtter · 09/12/2020 12:43

Try again

Jo Maugham
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/12/2020 12:57

@FromAMNtter

Just leaving this here. Name changed as I have tweeted
Related:
Jo Maugham
OldCrone · 09/12/2020 13:05

So the 'Good Law Project' is happy to be funded by an offshore-based medical company associated with two currently suspended UK doctors (one with a criminal record) who make £££££ from selling hormones online.

Nice company to keep.

Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 09/12/2020 13:13
Datun · 09/12/2020 13:13

@OldCrone

So the 'Good Law Project' is happy to be funded by an offshore-based medical company associated with two currently suspended UK doctors (one with a criminal record) who make £££££ from selling hormones online.

Nice company to keep.

It's unbelievable.

Mr Maugham, cant you see that fundraising to advocate for puberty blockers being prescribed to unconsenting children, whilst being financially supported by a suspended GP whose livelihood depends on them, is a tad compromising?

yourhairiswinterfire · 09/12/2020 13:26

Not forgetting that a teenager tragically took their own life after being prescribed hormones by these people, who claim to do ''robust checks'' Hmm Not a great look, is it?

Robust checks obviously doesn't include mental health analysis then, eh?

mollscroll · 09/12/2020 13:36

That Gender GP tweet is shocking. Are crowd funding sites under no obligation to investigate source of wealth as we are in financial services ? If continued sale of these drugs illegally is the source of these funds then CrowdJustice are handling the proceeds of crime (assuming illegal drug sales is a crime)?

Thingybob · 09/12/2020 14:03

Reading between the lines it seems that Jolyon is completely aligned with the views of GenderGP, Mermaids and adult TRAs. That is that children should have complete bodily autonomy without any psychological or psychiatric gatekeeping, hence quoting the ICD. The ultimate goal seems to be hormones/surgeries on demand without the need to go through any specialist clinic.

PotholeParadies · 09/12/2020 17:06

I'm going to present this collection of snapshots without comment. I think that if I said what I think, I'd get banned so silence is the only option.

twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1335930496795234310?s=19

OldCrone · 09/12/2020 17:28

@mollscroll

That Gender GP tweet is shocking. Are crowd funding sites under no obligation to investigate source of wealth as we are in financial services ? If continued sale of these drugs illegally is the source of these funds then CrowdJustice are handling the proceeds of crime (assuming illegal drug sales is a crime)?
I'm not sure that what they're doing is technically illegal. After Helen Webberley's suspension, her husband (also a medical doctor, but a gastroenterologist, so neither a GP nor someone with any expertise in transgender healthcare) took over the prescribing. When he, too, was suspended they employed other doctors to write the prescriptions and used a UK online pharmacy to supply the medication, which also appeared to be a legitimate route. Eventually this was also stopped after an investigation by the pharmacies regulator.

I'm not sure what's happening with GenderGP's business at the moment, but I think it's been based on exploiting loopholes rather than illegal activity.

There's no doubt that from an ethical point of view the business model is dubious. After it was revealed that one of their patients was a 12-year-old girl who had been prescribed testosterone and the suicide of another of their young patients, I'm surprised that any campaigner for children who identify as transgender would want anything to do with them.

RedToothBrush · 09/12/2020 18:29

@merrymouse

I wonder if maybe the U.K. is actually leading the world in the use of PB’s rather than an outlier. And the WHO will eventually follow suit?

I suspect this issue isn't a priority for them, given the number of people in the world who don't have access to basic medical care.

This is an area where the UK is different to the rest of the world, because of the structure of our healthcare system - the judicial review is taking place because a public body is involved, and Keira was able to access this care in the first place because it was provided by the NHS.

I remember year ago a story about the WHO and White hat bias en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_hat_bias (do read the definition here because its about dogooding evangelism within healthcare)

I posted about it on MN but im damned if i can find it.

It relates to childbirth and a study that WHO then reported on.

The study was about vaginal birth versus csections. I dont remember exactly the criteria definition (eg whether it was planned csection or all csections) but i think it was from about 2008 ish.

Anyway WHO decided to use this study to illustrate their line that vaginal birth was preferable to csection and caused less harm. They used all these details and stats from the study to support their line.

Except the problem was if you looked at the actual study, it didn't show this. Indeed the study's raw data showed that infact csections were safer (within the perimeters defined by the study which i forget off the top of my head).

But all these journalists and media outlets accepted what the WHO press release told them without question and never bothered to check the study and what it actually said.

I found the case intriguing and a very good reminder of why its always worth checked detail and not assuming that organisations such as this are infallible.

As it went, the UK soon after went against what WHO said and the common belief held at the time (and still to a certain extent) that csections should be avoided at all costs when NICE looked at the evidence and recommended that planned csections were as safe as planned vaginal births.

For me it was an interesting lesson in just how pervasive, entrenched, and deep ingrained into institutions ideology around certain areas of medicine can be.

We should definitely give authority to certain professionals and organisations but we should hold them to proper scrutiny and not take them purely at face value.

I think how WHO have conducted themselves over the last year in certain areas has led to a few questions being asked about the influence of politics in the institution. But this is not a new thing by any means from the story i highlight above.