A THIRD of all convictions for women are for TV licence non payment

[dianebrewster]

I found this totally mind-boggling and totally shocking

"TV licence fee evasion accounts for nearly a third of women's convictions, official figures have revealed, prompting calls for its decriminalisation and warnings that the BBC could be guilty of "indirect gender discrimination".

An increasing proportion of women are being landed with criminal records for non-payment of the fee and are nearly 10 times more likely to be convicted for it than men, according to Ministry of Justice (MoJ) data published on Thursday."

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/11/26/third-female-convictions-uk-due-tv-licence-fee-evasion-moj-stats/

@sawdustformypony

Long time since I used to be a defense solicitor, but in case such as these, the defendants are being sentenced for a more serious matter for which they receive a custodial sentence. At that point the defense solicitor rises to their feet and points out to the magistrates that their client has outstanding fines and given that he or she is now being sent down, could they be real sweethearts and to order to 'lodge' the outstanding fines - meaning they don't have to pay them. Defendant hardly delighted they are being sent down but at least the fines are being wiped off the slate. On paper it looks like they are (also) being sent down for non payment of a TV license.

Here's a blog from a magistrate to show there is such a thing as lodging fines:

artful lodger

NB . Magistrates are not overly fond of sending people to prison - especially women and more than happy for these sentences to be concurrent.

In some cases, maybe, but it's also possible to be imprisoned for non-payment of a fine, although maybe courts have a practice of not doing that. But there have definitely been people jailed both for not paying their council tax after the (civil) court has ordered them to and not paying their TV licence fine. It's not the case that they have always committed other offences.

I can so completely understand this. I'm a single parent, i have a job now, but when I was broke and raising two kids stuck at home, unable to earn enough to pay for childcare for two, I got by, just, I managed, just and yet that was the bill that used to make me feel ''should I pay this?''

Although to be honest, even now, with teenagers and a full time job, I still resent paying it. We don't have a tv. We have screens. I pay it to stay out of trouble, that's all.

The blog only shows that lodging fines exists and does not support your claim that the imprisoned women are actually being jailed for other, more serious offenses.

As I mentioned the blog was indeed merely to show lodging exists. Whether you choose to give my account any credence or not, is a matter for you. On the whole, I'm not that bothered. I wrote it as I dislike people being duped. But, the old advice about being careful what you read in newspapers is as true now as in the past. Newspapers don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

Disgusting corporation

There's a petition you can sign to support de criminalising it:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/549628

Its a poll tax. Its disgusting
If you are JK Rowling in a 30 room mansion with an 85" OLED tv in every room or a single mum on benefits living in a bedsit with a 19" JVC you pay the same.
The Detector vans were a load of old bollocks. They were only ever a propaganda tool, proven by the fact that nobody has ever been prosecuted by evidence collected by them.
All prosecutions are either by looking through a window and seeing you watching live tv or even more likely, by conversations on the doorstep and what comes out of your mouth.
And there's the point.
Women have a much lower level in a disagreeability factor and are far more likely to engage and answer questions on the door step whereas men are more likely to either close the door in their face or just tell them to f off.
If you look on YT there is hours of men arguing with Capita bullies on the doorstep but no women, despite women being the majority of prosecutions.

@Childrenofthestones

Its a poll tax. Its disgusting If you are JK Rowling in a 30 room mansion with an 85" OLED tv in every room or a single mum on benefits living in a bedsit with a 19" JVC you pay the same. The Detector vans were a load of old bollocks. They were only ever a propaganda tool, proven by the fact that nobody has ever been prosecuted by evidence collected by them. All prosecutions are either by looking through a window and seeing you watching live tv or even more likely, by conversations on the doorstep and what comes out of your mouth. And there's the point. Women have a much lower level in a disagreeability factor and are far more likely to engage and answer questions on the door step whereas men are more likely to either close the door in their face or just tell them to f off. If you look on YT there is hours of men arguing with Capita bullies on the doorstep but no women, despite women being the majority of prosecutions.

Exactly Don’t engage Don’t answer door Don’t watch live tv Don’t watch iPlayer They are stuck in the past if it went subscription they’d get a fraction of public extorted funding So glad people are waking up to this

In some cases, maybe, but it's also possible to be imprisoned for non-payment of a fine, although maybe courts have a practice of not doing that. But there have definitely been people jailed both for not paying their council tax after the (civil) court has ordered them to and not paying their TV licence fine. It's not the case that they have always committed other offences.

Yes it is possible. Again I'm going back a bit to when I used to work out of the Magistrates court in a largish city and they would have a dedicated fines-only court once a week for people not paying their fines. The magistrates would bend over backwards to try to help people with their fines. Hearing after hearing would go by and it was only once the bench had decided the person was wilfully refusing to pay, would they then pass a custodial sentence.

lowest (and most typical) level of fines would get you 1 week in custody. As you only serve half that in prison, this drops it down to 3 days. 3.5 days but half days don't count. So the way that it was done, was to surrender to bail warrant at local police station, nice and early Thursday morning - up in front of the bench in the afternoon. Then get sentenced to the week - which means release date would be on the weekend. But prisons cant be arsed with that level of weekend work, so they release you on the Friday instead, the day after you went in. You're back in your usual seat in the local spoons before anybody has noticed.

I don’t watch live TV, and only about 1-2 hours of catch up programmes a week. I informed TV licensing that I didn’t need a licence, but a couple of years later they started bombarding me with threatening letters. On principle alone I won’t bother to let them know I don’t need a licence - they can keep wasting their money on the printing and postage.

A PP said they don’t allow the first year to be paid in instalments? I imagine that contributes to the problem, £150 in one chunk is a lot for a single mother or anyone on a limited income to find.

@CausingChaos2

I don’t watch live TV, and only about 1-2 hours of catch up programmes a week. I informed TV licensing that I didn’t need a licence, but a couple of years later they started bombarding me with threatening letters. On principle alone I won’t bother to let them know I don’t need a licence - they can keep wasting their money on the printing and postage.

A PP said they don’t allow the first year to be paid in instalments? I imagine that contributes to the problem, £150 in one chunk is a lot for a single mother or anyone on a limited income to find.

Good for you We have rights They Rely on us not being aware of our rights - they have such disregard for the public - I hate to bring up the obvious but....they’re so arrogant and entitled they think everyone has forgotten jimmy saville, Rolf Harris, Stuart hall etc. Just a vile corrupt organisation ...I’d love to think they are heading towards end of gravy train personally

@CausingChaos2

Even if £150 was easy to find they are not worth it
I’d rather give £150 to charity

I don't pay mine. I can afford it but choose not to. The whole way it's administered is awful and as PP said, I already pay for Sky, why should I then pay for the TV licence on top?

@sawdustformypony

In some cases, maybe, but it's also possible to be imprisoned for non-payment of a fine, although maybe courts have a practice of not doing that. But there have definitely been people jailed both for not paying their council tax after the (civil) court has ordered them to and not paying their TV licence fine. It's not the case that they have always committed other offences.

Yes it is possible. Again I'm going back a bit to when I used to work out of the Magistrates court in a largish city and they would have a dedicated fines-only court once a week for people not paying their fines. The magistrates would bend over backwards to try to help people with their fines. Hearing after hearing would go by and it was only once the bench had decided the person was wilfully refusing to pay, would they then pass a custodial sentence.

lowest (and most typical) level of fines would get you 1 week in custody. As you only serve half that in prison, this drops it down to 3 days. 3.5 days but half days don't count. So the way that it was done, was to surrender to bail warrant at local police station, nice and early Thursday morning - up in front of the bench in the afternoon. Then get sentenced to the week - which means release date would be on the weekend. But prisons cant be arsed with that level of weekend work, so they release you on the Friday instead, the day after you went in. You're back in your usual seat in the local spoons before anybody has noticed.

Okay well we’re talking about women living in poverty here. It’s not just TV licence but council tax too, where sentences can be up to 3 months if you don’t pay. I’m sure the Mags are very kind indeed to people fined £1000 as a result of not being able to afford £150 in the first place but if you can’t pay it, you can’t pay it. There are many in this country who can’t afford to feed themselves, let alone pay a court fine.

The suggestion about ‘your usual seat in the local spoons’ is a bit too. Some women have had their children taken into foster care due to jail sentences relating to their poverty. Even if people in the pub didn’t notice, I’m sure their children did.

They had a change in attitude a while ago I think - 20 years ago, despite having a TV license, I was plagued with letters, phone calls and a (thankfully non-aggressive - helped because I had the license pinned to the board next to me) visit.

10 years ago I moved away from the UK, and they didn't take my visa and rental contract in another country as a good enough reason to cancel my license and refund the remaining.

5 years ago, having moved to/from the UK again, they just accepted my form on the internet, and processed the refund with no issues at all.

The idea that someone can end up in prison for want of 12.50/month is terrifying. Payment plans are worked out for everything else (I knew someone when I was younger who was paying 1.50/month for a phone bill..), I'm shocked that so many women are ending up in prison because of it.

I've been caught 3 times without a license now. The last time I expected to be fined (again) but the guy just gave me a payment card and monthly payments, which I've managed to keep up with. He said they don't take people to court now unless it's a last resort.
It's a very small amount and if people can't pay it then that's the issue, imo. Is it poverty or due to chaotic lives? Either way people need help.

@feelingverylazytoday

I've been caught 3 times without a license now. The last time I expected to be fined (again) but the guy just gave me a payment card and monthly payments, which I've managed to keep up with. He said they don't take people to court now unless it's a last resort. It's a very small amount and if people can't pay it then that's the issue, imo. Is it poverty or due to chaotic lives? Either way people need help.

Lol I am also on a thread about point on driver’s licences and I saw this and was like ‘WTF how brazen is this person getting caught driving without a licence three times and feeling no shame’. Then I realised it was the TV thread. I think the inspectors go for easy pickings - women in social housing who look like they’re easily intimidated. Often people can’t pay even the minimum amount. It seems minimal to us but if you can’t afford to even buy food, it’s a lot. Also, poverty is definitely not just due to leading a chaotic life.

Trying to mange one or more zero hours contract jobs can be chaotic.

Imagine finding it hard to buy your kid new shoes after theirs split because you decided to pay the tv licence this month, then seeing Gary Linacre on over £1.5m and Zoe Ball just got a £900,000 pay rise.😮

@Thelnebriati

Trying to mange one or more zero hours contract jobs can be chaotic.

Well yes of course life becomes chaotic when you’re poor but many people suggest that people get into debt because they themselves are chaotic and can’t manage their finances. That’s what I was referring to.

I don't have a TV licence as I don't receive any channels, just Netflix.

Just wondering, do they actually ever come around?

I received letters for years, threatening to pay me a visit, basically at any time during the day.

So far noone has showed up. How can this be?

Not at all surprising.

They conned me into signing one of their declarations a few days after we moved in as our first priority was not tv license. I didn't realise at the time, that they cannot prosescute unless they con you into signing their declaration. Ended up paying the fine (was literally for 4 days worth of TV too..lol), but I know for the future, if we happen to move again and the vultures circle.

@hotpotlover I think it depends where you live. I suspect again that they go for easy pickings. If you hit a large block of council flats, you can probably catch quite a few people out, safe in the knowledge that they won’t know their rights and will be scared of you. Probably less lucrative to go for middle-class residents. I know they caught a load of students when I was at university and they went round banging on all the doors. But in many cases I don’t think they ever bother. I also think it’s a huge lie that they have a box that can tell whether you’re watching TV. They can only tell if they enter the house and see a TV there.

They actually told me (and you can tell I was already stressed to bits with the move, as I believed this) that if I didn't sign the page they were waving at me, they would have 'no option but to contact the police' and I would 'likely' be arrested

This after telling me they had the legal right to force their way into my house if necessary, but only if I did not answer their questions 'honestly'.

A PP said they don’t allow the first year to be paid in instalments? I imagine that contributes to the problem, £150 in one chunk is a lot for a single mother or anyone on a limited income to find.

Not sure if its maybe a local decision or not?

But what they do here is the first year of installments has to be paid over 6 months, you then start paying your next years. I guess the theory is so you are always in credit instead of behind, but its ripping people off in my eyes, and is making people have to pay double for their first 6 months also, and not even giving a break after this, just lwering payments and then its ongoing.

A while back I discovered MIL had been paying this way for 10 years. On a payment card, but had kept up the 'first 6 payments amount' so had effectively overpaid for her license a fair few times and oddly enough noone contacted her to let her know this. This was maybe 10 months back now? They are pointedly ignoring anyhing I send them about it, even though she has physical receipts to prove she has paid this for years now, I have now asked multiple times about a account statement showing whats been paid, to check their version matches up before asking for a refund that I know shes due. Not quick to return or even reply, when they know they owe you though oddly. Like many places..

25 quid a month, for 10 years shes paid, like clockwork too, ever a late payment. Its a big chunk, so no wonder they are trying to avoid her. If she owed them a quid though, they would be knocking on the door.

Rough reckoning says they owe about a grand and a half.