A THIRD of all convictions for women are for TV licence non payment

[dianebrewster]

I found this totally mind-boggling and totally shocking

"TV licence fee evasion accounts for nearly a third of women's convictions, official figures have revealed, prompting calls for its decriminalisation and warnings that the BBC could be guilty of "indirect gender discrimination".

An increasing proportion of women are being landed with criminal records for non-payment of the fee and are nearly 10 times more likely to be convicted for it than men, according to Ministry of Justice (MoJ) data published on Thursday."

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/11/26/third-female-convictions-uk-due-tv-licence-fee-evasion-moj-stats/

[DerbyshireMama]

@PlanDeRaccordement

I don’t like the logic behind it. That simply because women are ten times more likely than men to commit a certain crime, then that crime should be erased. Where would it end? Men are more than ten times more likely than women to be convicted of a long list of minor crimes like harassment, upskirting, urinating in public, indecent exposure, etc...but we’d never say that it’s discriminatory to have these as criminal offences. Not paying the TV license is in essence a type of theft and should stay a crime. If you can’t pay for the license, then don’t watch live TV or BBC iplayer.

Did you reallyyyy just call harassment, upskirting, indecent exposure etc "minor crimes"?

[RealityNotEssentialism]

I think we have our own MRA troll in @PlanDeRaccordement. Upskirting is 'a minor crime'. Accepts that women who don't pay the TV licence are likely to live in poverty and are often single parents, yet doesn't want to decriminalise it. Denies that male inspectors bully women on their own in their homes. Why go on a feminism board?

[Stripesnomore]

Well it is good news that they are decriminalising it. Criminality among women will now fall by a third.

[Splodgetastic]

What are the figures for council tax?

[PlanDeRaccordement]

@RealityNotEssentialism

I think we have our own MRA troll in *@PlanDeRaccordement*. Upskirting is 'a minor crime'. Accepts that women who don't pay the TV licence are likely to live in poverty and are often single parents, yet doesn't want to decriminalise it. Denies that male inspectors bully women on their own in their homes. Why go on a feminism board?

That’s unfair @RealityNotEssentialism
I listed upskirting as an example of a crime where men are more than ten times more likely than women to do to argue that we should not decriminalise a crime just because there is a sex gap where far more of one sex commit a crime than the other.
I actually pointed out that a big reason why more women do not pay the tv license is because they are more likely than men to be in poverty. How is that unfeminist?
I never denied that inspectors bully women. You’ve made that up just like you twisted what I have said.
All because you did not like me comparing you to an MRA by saying you think just as many men don’t pay the tv license but are not caught but with zero evidence for that statement. It’s exactly like the MRA arguments regarding how they think the justice system is biased against men.

[Stripesnomore]

It’s not a crime not to pay council tax.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

Did you reallyyyy just call harassment, upskirting, indecent exposure etc "minor crimes"?

Yes because they are not assault, rape, murder. Those are the major crimes. That’s the criminal category they are in.

[Defaultname]

@Stripesnomore

The internet is full of horror stories of the behaviour of tv licence inspectors and their strong arm tactics.

I don’t want live tv or bbc I player but still pay for a tv licence just to avoid the hassle of them turning up.

It should definitely be decriminalised.

Stopped watching live TV a while back. Finally stopped paying the BBC about 2 years ago. Wish I'd done it before.
No problems since, touch wood, though there are others online who've had lots.

[RealityNotEssentialism]

I found this quote from an article about council tax:


Please use the sharing tools found via the share button at the top or side of articles. Copying articles to share with others is a breach of FT.com T&Cs and Copyright Policy. Email [email protected] to buy additional rights. Subscribers may share up to 10 or 20 articles per month using the gift article service. More information can be found at www.ft.com/tour.
www.ft.com/content/d1ef81ea-da25-11e9-8f9b-77216ebe1f17

Women were disproportionately affected by council tax enforcement, he added, as they are more likely to have council tax bills in their own names. Fleeing domestic violence by moving into a refuge does not remove a woman’s legal obligation to pay council tax on her former home.

Although it's a civil matter if you don't pay your council tax, if you can't pay by the deadline you're given by the court, the council can apply for a committal order and ask for you to be imprisoned. Only in England though. Sigh. This is so horrible, especially the bit where they don't care even if you've had to flee DV and aren't living there. Bastards. Poverty should never be criminalised.

[Ifailed]

It’s not a crime not to pay council tax

Initially, maybe. But you can still be sent to prison for non-payment:

www.gov.uk/council-tax-arrears

[ProfessorSlocombe]

@Stripesnomore

Well it is good news that they are decriminalising it. Criminality among women will now fall by a third.

Not if it becomes a civil offence that is decided on balance of probabilities rather than reasonable doubt.

[Aesopfable]

@Stripesnomore

Well it is good news that they are decriminalising it. Criminality among women will now fall by a third.

I am sure uber women will make up the difference

[Stripesnomore]

Default, I know I should probably stop paying it. But like many others, have fled DV and have huge anxiety at the thought of someone hammering at the door and trying to get in. The extra anxiety is not worth the 157 quid.

BBC should become an opt in service. So many people don’t watch it anymore.

[LimaFoxtrotCharlie]

@Ereshkigalangcleg

There's no such thing as "indirect gender discrimination" in law. They mean "indirect sex discrimination" under the EA 2010.

But yes, women have always been pursued for TV licence fee fines more and are more likely to receive a custodial sentence for it. This should not be a custodial matter.

It’s not a custodial matter. The penalty for having no TV licence is a fine. Nobody can be sentenced to a community penalty or prison, because it is not a criminal offence.

[LimaFoxtrotCharlie]

Not a custodial offence

[RealityNotEssentialism]

@PlanDeRaccordement

Did you reallyyyy just call harassment, upskirting, indecent exposure etc "minor crimes"?

Yes because they are not assault, rape, murder. Those are the major crimes. That’s the criminal category they are in.

You what? Everything that isn't rape or murder is a minor crime? You clearly don't have a clue about the legal system at all. Firstly, common assault is actually a fairly minor crime (a summary offence) so it's incorrect to label that as a 'major crime', unless you are talking about more serious offences against the person. Second, there are many many crimes that don't fall into your categories of assault, rape, murder that are indictable only and can only be tried in the Crown Court.
Upskirting or voyeurism is actually an 'either way' offence, meaning it can be tried in mags or Crown Court and therefore is not a 'minor crime'. Exposure is also 'either way'.

[RealityNotEssentialism]

@LimaFoxtrotCharlie it actually is currently a criminal offence but is being decriminalised. The sentence is a fine though, not a custodial sentence, but if the person cannot pay their fine, they may be imprisoned and there are women in prison for not paying their TV licence.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

@RealityNotEssentialism
I’m in France where those crimes are considered to be and are legally defined as minor offences. That’s how we categorise them. I did not mean to cause any offence by using the term “minor crime”.

[Thelnebriati]

Are we talking about the TV licence in France?

Women (in the UK) used to be imprisoned for non payment of the TV licence (and in much higher numbers than men), until women campaigned against it. It was costing the tax payer more each week to keep their kids in care than it would have cost the tax payer to give them all a free TV licence.

Now there is a sliding scale of fines for non payment. and women are still criminalised for non payment. They still cant afford to pay the original licence fee let alone the £1,000 fine.
The answer to poverty is is not to keep criminalising poor women.

[movingonup20]

A lot of assumptions here. What is doesn't say is the proportion of men to women convicted of this specific crime. I read it as women don't commit more serious crimes (or as many crimes in total) so of the ones they do commit many are for tv licence evasion.

[Thelnebriati]

Women are 10 times more likely to be convicted of non payment than men.
(Paywall)
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/11/26/third-female-convictions-uk-due-tv-licence-fee-evasion-moj-stats/

TV licence evasion accounts for 30% of all female prosecutions compared to 4% of male prosecutions.
www.refinery29.com/en-gb/2019/07/237240/tv-licence-evasion-women

[TooManyDogsandChildren]

I think this is well known and yes it is mainly a combination of women being caught at home more (and famously the prosecutors don't care that the home may be jointly owned/rented, they just take the name of the woman in front of them and charge them), intimidation and poverty.

I will not watch any BBC channels for this reason and they can't become a subscription service fast enough for me (after which we all know they will just wither away).

[sawdustformypony]

Long time since I used to be a defense solicitor, but in case such as these, the defendants are being sentenced for a more serious matter for which they receive a custodial sentence. At that point the defense solicitor rises to their feet and points out to the magistrates that their client has outstanding fines and given that he or she is now being sent down, could they be real sweethearts and to order to 'lodge' the outstanding fines - meaning they don't have to pay them. Defendant hardly delighted they are being sent down but at least the fines are being wiped off the slate. On paper it looks like they are (also) being sent down for non payment of a TV license.

Here's a blog from a magistrate to show there is such a thing as lodging fines:

artful lodger

NB . Magistrates are not overly fond of sending people to prison - especially women and more than happy for these sentences to be concurrent.

[MillieVanilla]

Grew up in a home often visited by bailiffs- wonderful unintentional training for later in life!

But you can see how others wouldn't be so upfront and would cave.

As for @PlanDeRaccordement I've seen this individual before on here and I'm quite surprised HQ haven't intervened yet. Wind up merchant central.
Upskirting is not a minor crime it's a gross invasion of privacy and sexual assault. It concerns me that a female could be so blasé about it

[Thelnebriati]

The blog only shows that lodging fines exists and does not support your claim that the imprisoned women are actually being jailed for other, more serious offenses.

''You cannot go to prison for non-payment of your licence fee, but you can be jailed for not paying a fine imposed as punishment for not paying for a licence, and in 2012, 50 people were imprisoned, up from 30 in 2009. Of those, 49 were given a sentence of less than three months; one person was given a sentence of somewhere between three and six months.
www.theguardian.com/society/2014/sep/24/in-court-non-payment-tv-licence-television-desperate-cases

This from '94;
''Although women are 3 per cent of the prison population, they are a third of the jailed licence evaders. Harry Fletcher, from the National Association of Probation Officers, said: 'Often it is the women who have to run household budgets and face the consequences when money runs short. Jail for a woman who has to worry about her children can be devastating.'''
www.independent.co.uk/news/courts-jail-845-for-not-paying-tv-licence-fines-1428836.html

''Tory MP Andrew Bridgen, who has campaigned for reform, said: ‘It is a blatant injustice.'
'It is a regressive tax and there is no relief. If you can’t pay your council tax, you can get relief but not your TV licence. In a large number of cases, they are criminalising the most vulnerable in society for the crime of being poor.’'
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4130060/More-women-men-jailed-TV-licenses.html