Interesting article in The Times law section, written by Clare Fielding, a trans woman.

[happydappy2]

Quite refreshingly they acknowledge that their experience of life is different to that of someone born a girl, and they don’t mind if they are referred to as a trans woman, or a woman. Hopefully someone can share a link to it? Clare is responding to comments under the article.

I can't believe you're all commenting before we've checked with jj whether Claire is the right kind of trans woman or not. Is there a Twitter poll?

Barracker great post, I commented on another thread

Men and their fetishes

This comment got deleted & I got a strike, even though it was not referencing any particular individual, it was just those 4 words.

When women are banned from a parenting website, for having the audacity of recognising a man as a man-something has gone badly wrong and safeguarding will fail.

This madness of allowing men to 'live as a woman' for 2 years before getting a GRC has to stop. The issuing of GRCs has to end-the falsification of sex markers on identity documents has to end.

Reality has to win eventually

Hello all, I know the piece (it was not an article by me, but an interview I was asked to give) is now very much yesterday’s fish n chip paper, but I was seriously chuffed when a friend mentioned that the piece had given rise to a chat on mumsnet.

This is just to say I read the above comments and found them interesting. I can confirm I do not use mens’ loos (for those who raised the question). I have never been challenged in using female facilities, unlike I regret to say some of my gay natal female friends who have been challenged on occasion in such spaces because they look different or don’t fit the standard female template whatever that means. And that leads me into my plea to be kind, in response to the person who was evidently irritated by my comment in the interview. I meant no offence by what I said. I am not a trans campaigner but it seems to me that if we abandon kindness and continue to label or dehumanise those who disagree with us then we abandon civilised discourse, and history shows that is a dangerous place to go. This isn’t just (or, frankly, mainly) regarding this ‘trans’ debate, it runs across all of the issues that we face as a society which to my mind are so much more pressing and urgent, like poverty and climate change and I wasn’t addressing one side or another, but all people involved in this debate on all sides. So, with the greatest respect let us not f**k kindness, let’s try and do it more. Anyway, genuine thanks for taking interest in the piece and for the discussion. Have a great Christmas everybody. Clare.

When women are banned from a parenting website, for having the audacity of recognising a man as a man-something has gone badly wrong and safeguarding will fail.

Absolutely.

Kindness and respect is I think all most of us want.

Some forget that it's a two way street and if you hurt people enough they would be stupid to carry on giving and not receiving. Think it's standard game theory. Play nice once, if the other party does not play nice, stop playing nice.it can be hard to get back from that position, particularly if it's only some people that want to.

I would not naturally challenge anyone, In any potentially threatening situation I would just withdraw. However, women should not have to just quietly withdraw. We deserve equality of opportunity

funny how women are always told to be kind. We're not allowed to uphold our right to single sex spaces. The red herring of butch women being asked to leave a female space-never ever seen that.

Why aren't men told to be kind and accept effeminate males in their spaces?

Barracker

Agree 100%.

And that leads me into my plea to be kind, in response to the person who was evidently irritated by my comment in the interview.

Please don't tell women what to do. It's not about you. It's about our boundaries. It's deeply presumptuous of you.

I too in all my decades of using loos have never ever seen a woman challenged because she was butch. Women are really good at sexing people in the whole - we have to be for our safety. Neither surgery nor hormones change intrinsic characteristics.

Please be kind. Women don't want any type of male in their spaces, no matter how much any male wants to be there. Don't lose sight of being kind.

Fuck kind

Excellent post charleyparley

(As usual)

Please be kind. Women don't want any type of male in their spaces, no matter how much any male wants to be there. Don't lose sight of being kind.

This too is brilliant.

Turn the "kind" shite right back at 'em!

The thing is, Clare, you may well be being very unkind to the women in the women’s loos. You say you go unchallenged- well, durr! Few women would overcome their politeness, anxiety, fear of work reprisals , fear of some one who is simply larger than they are, worry about upsetting a colleague... in order to tell you genuinely whether they are comfortable with this or not.

Some will be. But how will you know how many are not?

Be kind to those women. You have the chance to make a change here.

@PopperUppleton

I too in all my decades of using loos have never ever seen a woman challenged because she was butch. Women are really good at sexing people in the whole - we have to be for our safety. Neither surgery nor hormones change intrinsic characteristics.

Please be kind. Women don't want any type of male in their spaces, no matter how much any male wants to be there. Don't lose sight of being kind.

me either! Its strange how the only people who have ever seen this happen are TW and people who support them using female toilets

and yes kindness goes both ways. Like many women here I was totally on the be kind/they only want to pee in peace/of course we're not meant to think TW are literally women

until I realised that that was precisely what I was meant to think, that there was literally no difference between us and, any and all women only spaces were open to TW no matter what stage of the journey they were on. Be Kind got our womens rights pushed to the brink so funnily enough I no longer feel inclined to be kind

oh! and its not women posing on social media with baseball bats, telling people they should die in grease fires or screaming 'die TERFS' but strangely I never see anyone popping into TRA spaces telling them to be kind

I see the counter to women stating they do not want males in their spaces of ‘my butch looking friends’ has been used.

At what point would I ever challenge someone in that space rather than leave and not use that space again? I come from a DV background. I recognize males (unless they have gone through extreme facial reconstruction). Only if I was there with my daughter and maybe then I would simply stand guard at her door and escape as soon as possible. Or there was a long queue plenty of safety in numbers.

At what point does a male realise that women have been socialized to not challenge and realise that their presence in these spaces is harming others?

It is clear that is not a message that is getting through and those males who feel it is their right to use those facilities do not heed other’s needs at all. It is clear that any male who perceives their right of entry dismisses and refuses to understand women’s needs ahead of their own.

Be kind goes both ways you say. Where is your kindness?

Oh and many women are socialized to smile through their discomfort. So, that woman smiling while you are there..... may not be welcoming you at all!

Brilliant post, Barraker

This particularly resonated:

"Any man who makes a woman's life harder, who demands she treat him with privileges that men should not have, who demand she make concessions about her own rights for him, is a danger to women's rights. To women."

It always seems to boil down to this:

Do biologically female people have the right to say “no” to biologically male people?
Are we, as females, entitled to have our own boundaries or not?

Great Post barracker!

the lack of challenge to Clare being in a women's toilet doesn't indicate acceptance and doesn't demonstrate lack of distress caused.

Hi Clare, if you are still here - I appreciate your input and engagement with this - it is a refreshing change to have a less unpleasant tone. However, I wonder if your perception is coloured by your wishes, rather than what is actually happening around you? I do admit, it may be quite tricky for you to get the real view of the women whose spaces you use as most will either quietly say nothing, or if you asked them face to face are socialised to be kind to the extent that they will override their sense of discomfort and tell you it is fine. So I don't necessarily blame you for feeling like it is ok for you to do that (my female socialisation showing there) but some sensitive men have got the hang of erring on the safe side when it comes to their presence around women and I think it would be helpful for you to have the same view.

People who have the benefit of male socialisation throughout their life often find it hard to pick up on the actual feelings of women. They may well only share their objections in a close female circle where they feel comfortable to share, so if you just assume that it is not ok I think that would work better.

I too in all my decades of using loos have never ever seen a woman challenged because she was butch. Women are really good at sexing people in the whole - we have to be for our safety. Neither surgery nor hormones change intrinsic characteristics.

I will add my agreement to this - I know and have known some very butch women but at worst it might take a second glance - I have never come across anyone being challenged and I am surprised about these claims.

In most circumstances I can tell the sex of the person approaching with my back turned, there are so many non-visual clues - the sound and weight of their footsteps/breathing, smell (sometimes picked up unconsciously - pheromones?). As many women say, we are very good at sexing the person near us for a good reason.

I came on here to comment, but Barracker said it all, very eloquently, weeks ago.

Yes, kindness should start closer to home and not to try and trample over women. No male would even be trying to do 'soothe' talking if women didn't kick up a fuss.

Strangely, I've never felt entitled to encroach in any way on some service or role specifically needed for the opposite sex, another 'race' or people of different ages.

Because of all the online censorship, I caught myself saying the word 'Transwomen' (talking about @Amnasty and their letter calling to disempower women etc.). I caught myself up quickly. Why on earth was I qualifying the word woman in speech to include any male in that category? I know what a woman is and I studied Biology. Never forget a secondary school book giving the skeleton of a male in bold and women's skeleton in a perforated outline on top of it. Is it suggested to denounce the biology teacher and rip the biology book up as hate propaganda? Hey, there are no biologically male or female bodies. Online is 1984.

I copied Barracker's post in case it goes. Too good to lose.

Clare I'm really delighted to hear that you are keen to be more kind. A very good place to start is by not coming into women's toilets or other places where we are vulnerable.

Believe me when I say we women can spot male people from a distance. The gait, the stance, the shoulders, the hands, the feet, the attitude - all of these are something we can assess from the corner of our eyes and instinctively associate with a heightened risk of danger.

My transwomen friends have been making an effort to be more kind and so they have been using male toilets for some time now - and they have encountered no problems whatsoever.

Perhaps this is something you could do too?

I AM kind.
I am kind to children who are exploring who they are and try on different costumes as part of the process.

I am kind to autistic children who need my support. I am kind to women who have been hurt badly by men.
I am kind to girls who are seeing sports scholarships and medals snatched from them.

Are you kind to the above @CRFLaw? My plea to you is to be kind to them. And be kind to me by not calling me names.

Or is it just natal women who are required to be kind to natal men?

"There's a difference between being nice and being kind."

Most of the people who order women to be kind are actually telling women to be nice. Genuine kindness, the kind of kindness that stems from compassion not cowardice, requires making waves sometimes. And it requires being kind and compassionate to yourself first and foremost, otherwise you won't have the mental resources to be compassionate towards others.

In a spirit of compassion and kindness towards myself, I have to say that I find the constant disregard of women's feelings and women's wellbeing wearing. It's always juxtaposed with this highly exaggerated regard for male feelings, as if male egos are as delicate and precious as Faberge eggs. And I mean they may well be that delicate... but they aren't that precious. Quite the reverse. The world would be a much better place if women tiptoed around male egos much less, and males managed to form robust egos that can deal with women saying no to them from time to time.

In a spirit of kindness, then, I'm going to say that I'm not ever going to prioritise male feelings over my own, ever again. My feelings matter just as much as the feelings of any male.

Some great posts responding to Clare, who I doubt will be back.