Drag everywhere

[ImaSababa]

Why has drag become the go-to LGBTQ activity? It's everywhere.

Manchester Jewish Museum's nod to the movement is a drag act called Chanukah Lewinsky. Call me a spoilsport, but I'd like to think that we LBGT Jews have contributed more to the fabric of culture and society than a fucking drag queen.

Just wanted to rant, really.

now imagine that on any other protected group

Women are NOT a protected group. We are not even a minority. Claiming victimhood where none exists is starting to get embarrassing. Can we just get a grip here: haven't we got anything better to do than flare up in internet outrage over something so...fun/tacky/meaningless?

A man in makeup and a dress pretends to be a woman in a cheap, vaudeville show isn't a true threat to the sisterhood. It is not 'black face'. It is not an act of aggression directed at us.

The distinction between queer culture and gay 'culture' (cultures) is useful though. I am only just learning about these things. I read somewhere a while back that there is a sort of war between the cultures. People who identify as gay are suspicious of queers and lesbians (the latter they think of as officious and dull), and people who identify as lesbian are suspicious of gays (who they think of as flippant) and queers (who they don't trust sexually). Which leaves queers, who are suspicious of everyone they look down upon as 'vanilla' including all gays and lesbians who lead lives with jobs and mortgages etc. I doubt the stereotype is true in all situations but I thought it was interesting at a population-level. Sorry if I've offended anyone - just repeating back someone else's take on it all.

So the fish references aren't offensive? Just for clarity Guinea. Am I allowed to find them offensive? Oh, and I was referring to the protected characteristics under the equality act.

@Guineapigbridge

The distinction between queer culture and gay 'culture' (cultures) is useful though. I am only just learning about these things. I read somewhere a while back that there is a sort of war between the cultures. People who identify as gay are suspicious of queers and lesbians (the latter they think of as officious and dull), and people who identify as lesbian are suspicious of gays (who they think of as flippant) and queers (who they don't trust sexually). Which leaves queers, who are suspicious of everyone they look down upon as 'vanilla' including all gays and lesbians who lead lives with jobs and mortgages etc. I doubt the stereotype is true in all situations but I thought it was interesting at a population-level. Sorry if I've offended anyone - just repeating back someone else's take on it all.

Yes, that seems to tie in with what we've seen.

A man in makeup and a dress pretends to be a woman in a cheap, vaudeville show isn't a true threat to the sisterhood. It is not 'black face'. It is not an act of aggression directed at us.

It isn't blackface; you're right. It is womanface. But the comparison with minstrel shows is an apt one. Blacking up and donning exaggerated features of supposed "blackness" for the purpose of mockery is directly comparable to what drag queens do with the trappings of supposed womanhood.

How can you honestly say that drag is some harmful jape when drag queens use names like Anna Bortion and JonBenet Blonde? How is that good for the "sisterhood"?

It is not 'black face'. It is not an act of aggression directed at us

How does it differ exactly?

@HecatesCats

It's just offensive to women, always has been. Womanface.

Drag is a performance art. You could equally say Drag Kings are offensive to men. And there are a lot of them, and very talented.

Drag has become more mainstream due to the popularity of shows such as Ru Paul's Drag Race, which brings out some really talented performers.

This whole thread borders on the homophobic. They are not akin to blackface and racial prejudice, which was simply horrible and for ridicule.

If you don't like drag acts, don't go to seem them or watch them on tv. Simple. x

But why aren't Minstrel Shows equally considered to be art? I mean, I don't think they are, but I don't see the difference between those and drag.

I don’t agree drag is “womanface” either. And the “fish” reference is more about someone falling for them being a woman “hook, line and sinker” rather than a smell.
Drag has been part of European culture for centuries. In the 1660s there are records of men dressing in drag as women at royal courts for parties, and women dressing as men too.
It is also a performance art tracing back to medieval times when men played women’s parts on stage in theatres before actresses were legalised. Even today, we have women now playing mens parts.

www.rsc.org.uk/news/archive/women-playing-male-roles

It ruins Strictly for me. And you only get a few seconds..

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]I don’t agree drag is “womanface” either. And the “fish” reference is more about someone falling for them being a woman “hook, line and sinker” rather than a smell.
Drag has been part of European culture for centuries. In the 1660s there are records of men dressing in drag as women at royal courts for parties, and women dressing as men too.
It is also a performance art tracing back to medieval times when men played women’s parts on stage in theatres before actresses were legalised. Even today, we have women now playing mens parts.

www.rsc.org.uk/news/archive/women-playing-male-roles[/quote]

I still don't like it.

the “fish” reference is more about someone falling for them being a woman “hook, line and sinker” rather than a smell

Oh come on, it's possible to defend drag, if you so wish, without gaslighting. It's offensive, so is the word hunty. Reel me in with the artistic arguments by all means, but the slang is clearly offensive. It's not homophobic to point that out either Mishy.

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]I don’t agree drag is “womanface” either. And the “fish” reference is more about someone falling for them being a woman “hook, line and sinker” rather than a smell.
Drag has been part of European culture for centuries. In the 1660s there are records of men dressing in drag as women at royal courts for parties, and women dressing as men too.
It is also a performance art tracing back to medieval times when men played women’s parts on stage in theatres before actresses were legalised. Even today, we have women now playing mens parts.

www.rsc.org.uk/news/archive/women-playing-male-roles[/quote]
Slavery, child prostitution and the death penalty were part of European culture for centuries- are you defending those practices as well?@PlanDeRaccordement

Drag is womanface. It is offensive and misogynistic.

And @Guineapigbridge so women are not victims? Tell that to the girls abused with FGM or menstruation shaming, the battered wives of lockdown abuse, the women raped and their cases dropped, the women underpayed, overworked, ignored, or the families of the many many women murdered by male pattern violence. Drag culture belittles every single one of these lives.

the “fish” reference is more about someone falling for them being a woman “hook, line and sinker” rather than a smell

Of course it does. And "hunty" refers to the hunt for the perfect weave. Give me a break!

I honestly find the term woman face laughable.
It's honestly ridiculous in my opinion, and find it more offensive comparing it to black face than anything else!
If you don't like drag, fair enough, switch off.
I personally don't see the problem - I mean, the "argument" (for want of a better word) is usually "men thinking they're women" by people on here.
Drag - it's literally a costume.
Express yourself how you want, I mean it's been going on in pantomimes for years and no-one gets offended by Widow Twanky (well I assume they don't, I'm no doubt wrong though lol)

Why is the comparison 'ridiculous' and 'offensive' Quaagars?

So Quagaars, what do you think is harmless about the names mentioned above?

Drag has become mainstream, meaning for some drag queens who need to shock, just dressing 'as a woman' has to become more and more over the top. It has to be bordering on the offensive otherwise they don't get the attention they need. This is why drag has changed from pantomime to gross charactures that has nothing to do with women anymore. It also attracks some very unsavory characters with fetishes. But women can't protest? No one can say look, this has gone too far, we don't like it anymorr, please stop? No, then we are being 'Karens' and should just ignore it. Would you ever say that to another group of people?

Drag has become mainstream, meaning for some drag queens who need to shock, just dressing 'as a woman' has to become more and more over the top. It has to be bordering on the offensive otherwise they don't get the attention they need. This is why drag has changed from pantomime to gross charactures that has nothing to do with women anymore

The mainstream drag queens aren't "gross and offensive" from what I've seen.
Watched Drag Race UK last year for example, enjoyed it.
A lot of it was creating costumes for different tasks, or lip synching to pop tunes.
Nothing to do with talking about fish, or fetishes which people seem to think on here that all drag queens do.

I agree that I don't think the comparison to black face is right. Drag queens are an expression of extreme femininity and, being supportive of gender non-conformity, I think anyone should be allowed to express any type of extreme femininity/masculinity. I don't want to see drag banned or cancelled. I can see why drag is an important outlet for many men who feel that they cannot express this kind of femininity in their day to day life (primarily because of societal stigma).

However, I think some drag acts are looking for a shock factor in order to be popular and visible and often that crosses the line into misogyny. I think it's completely fair that women should be able to call this what it is and I resent the constant gaslighting that this is "progressive" and "breaking gender stereotypes".

Oh, and I'd never call anyone a Karen.
That gets annoying to me too lol

I really wish posters would stop pretending that the slang isn't an intrinsic part of the scene.
Ru Paul's Drag Race is all about the slang, there's a fan site with a page dedicated to explaining it all, Fishy isn't the only offensive term in there:

https://rupaulsdragrace.fandom.com/wiki/RuPaul%27sDraggRaceDictionary

Plus numerous reviews of the series have come with decoders, a particularly sanitised one from Elle Aus here:

It's basically an A-Z of drag slang, so you can start watching without wondering what the hell anyone is saying half the time.

'RuPauls Drag Race' Slang Definitions | ELLE Australia

If you want to argue that it isn’t offensive to use terms like fishy and hunty then do, but don’t pretend it’s not a part of the drag scene. If pejorative terms were used referencing other groups this would not be deemed acceptable.

I don't think it helps that trans is included in LGB...because I feel they are 2 different things and thus muddy the water when it comes to determinng rights and fairness.

@ClaireP20

I don't think it helps that trans is included in LGB...because I feel they are 2 different things and thus muddy the water when it comes to determinng rights and fairness.

This.

..with knobs on.

I don't think it helps that trans is included in LGB...because I feel they are 2 different things and thus muddy the water when it comes to determinng rights and fairness

Not sure what this has got to do with drag?

@Quaagars 'woman' is not a costume, FFS....

"Drag - it's literally a costume"

You clearly don't realise it, but you've just highlighted why drag is so very offensive.