Gender neutral toilets at work

[SmallPug]

I know it’s been done to death, but I need to rebut the ridiculous ‘we do it to be inclusive’ email re loos. Our office building - which is an arts institution and we rent an office inside effectively has mixed sex loos. There are ostensibly male and female toilets, but they all have ‘gender neutral’ signage. I wrote a very clear email (using Woman’s place info) outlining the issue of having ‘mixed sex’ toilets and I got a ‘it’s to be inclusive so people can use the toilets they feel most fits their gender identity’. Which basically defeats the point and they might as well be honest. I haven’t seen anything to be concerned about (yet) it’s all very naice etc etc and not like a train station loos - but it is accessible to the public in places, and the point remains that they’re affectively mixed sex. I used ‘sex’ throughout - they used gender. It would be good to have the best evidence, including links, of what’s wrong with this. I am not suggesting they shouldn’t have any gender neutral toilets - but they shouldn’t be all gender neutral. Thanks.

Patchwork - there aren't any toilets that aren't unisex. They are marked women (then the symbols for female, male and any sex) and men (female, male and any sex). So effectively ALL the toilets are unisex, but they're pretending they're not. And most people dont understand this is the case, as they only see the women / men signs and ignore the symbols.

Thanks for advice all. To be honest, I am worried per Sapphos message that it seems petty. But isn't that what all these changes rely on? People or more specifically women not objecting.

Does anyone know when the result of the Govts consultation will be?

@SmallPug

Thanks for advice all. To be honest, I am worried per Sapphos message that it seems petty. But isn't that what all these changes rely on? People or more specifically women not objecting.

They’ll think everyone is happy with the new arrangement if nobody says anything. I think you mentioned people being comfortable but where’s the comfortable ones for women who can’t/don’t want to share with members of the opposite sex?

I think you mentioned people being comfortable but where’s the comfortable ones for women who can’t/don’t want to share with members of the opposite sex?

Yes women don't seem to count in all of this really do they. It's just the men that count. It's important to complain every single time. And do not stop until it's changed back again. These are women's rights, not men's rights.

How can they pretend they’re not unisex if they all have men’s & women’s signs on them?

I’d be in favor of clarifying that gender neutral means “all female people allowed, regardless of how they identify” but I imagine that’s not what they have in mind.

And this is why I am scared to go back into the world of work. I’m still applying for jobs, but I don’t know how I will cope if I’m expected to share toilets with men.

To be honest, I am worried per Sapphos message that it seems petty.

Don't.

Some people consider women's concerns petty when those concerns prevent them accessing the women's toilets.

Just my opinion, feel free to ignore, but I think the very powerful objections women have to males being in women's rape crisis centres, women's prisons and women's refuges are diluted with objections to males being in unisex toilets. Especially in the workplace when the likelihood of anything untoward happening is minuscule. It takes the focus off the stuff that really matters.

The OP explained everyone naturally designates one toilet to be male and the other female. Sounds fine and logical to me.

For a problem to arise, first the company would need to employ a trans employee. That trans employee would need to insist on using the toilet that did not match their birth sex. The trans employee would then need to use the toilet at the same time as the OP AND do something sufficiently terrible (other than use the loo) to make a problem happen.

I can't find it in myself to feel too concerned I'm afraid.

OK. So maybe we need a list of spaces women should and should not make a fuss about. Let's get our social maps out and draw on them precisely where we will accept men in women's spaces without demur...

3 years ago I would have had a think. Today, no pondering necessary. No lines, no accepted incursions.

Females are all women.

No man is a woman!

And shame on anyone trying to bluster with their whataboutery!!

To be honest, I am worried per Sapphos message that it seems petty.

Don't worry that's the intention. To make you feel bad. The approach that underpins the whole ideology. Just check out the cess pit of Twitter. It starts off with instructions such as: be kind, stop being petty, but transwomen are women etc, and then when you don't back down it escalates to terf, bigot, suck my girl dick, to actual threats of physical violence. It's an entirely predictable response. Ignore it.

What about Muslim and Jewish staff? Aren’t they walking into a religious discrimination claim. Has anyone thought about the indirect disability discrimination angle for women who have suffered hair loss say for chemo who might want to adjust wigs in a single sex facility. Likewise adjusting prosthetics post mastectomy ? If the employer is really inclusive shouldn’t diverse religions snd disability be considered

@Eowynthewarrior you beat me to it as a reason to highlight, as I expect an employer would be more concerned about being labelled anti-semitic or Islamophobic than sexist.

Sappho - I think you’re missing the set up. It’s not an office with one company. We rent one office - there are hundreds of companies renting space and the the ground floor level is also accessible to the public (in central london).

I made the point about religious clash - they haven’t addressed it. They think that by nominally marking separate sets of toilets as male or female they are abiding by the law. Most people won’t understand that the symbols to the side of the common male/ female signage means that any one can use either one. They haven’t actually addressed my points at all.

I don't understand the people defending this. This is a breach of the law. Refer them to regulation 20(3)(c) of the 1992 Regulations. They need to provide sufficient "suitable" toilets: and to be "suitable" the toilets have to be single sex, unless completely self-contained. No guff about identity or feelings - single sex. Separate rooms for men and for women. This is a legal requirement. If they refuse to comply with it, they are in breach of health and safety requirements.

If they genuinely had some "suitable" toilets (ie, single sex or self-contained) they could argue this was "sufficient", but if they don't have any, they don't have a leg to stand on.

Complying with the law is not rocket science, and it matters. I would definitely pursue this because I think health and safety legislation is important and employers should not be able to pick and chose which parts they comply with. Look at the rest of the stuff in the 1992 Regulations - workplace safety, lighting, ventilation, etc.

If you don't like it, campaign to change the law - don't break it.

as I expect an employer would be more concerned about being labelled anti-semitic or Islamophobic than sexist.

I would expect them to be equally as concerned. Not more. Not less.

@SapphosRock

Just my opinion, feel free to ignore, but I think the very powerful objections women have to males being in women's rape crisis centres, women's prisons and women's refuges are diluted with objections to males being in unisex toilets. Especially in the workplace when the likelihood of anything untoward happening is minuscule. It takes the focus off the stuff that really matters.

The OP explained everyone naturally designates one toilet to be male and the other female. Sounds fine and logical to me.

For a problem to arise, first the company would need to employ a trans employee. That trans employee would need to insist on using the toilet that did not match their birth sex. The trans employee would then need to use the toilet at the same time as the OP AND do something sufficiently terrible (other than use the loo) to make a problem happen.

I can't find it in myself to feel too concerned I'm afraid.

Women working in the high tech business are extremely likely to have TW colleagues. We are concerned because we have already had disturbing encounters in the toilets with some of these colleagues. We are also all too aware how our complaints about sexual assault and abuse by male colleagues are already ignored or downplayed.

I dont understand how you can say its minuscule when it is already happening

So kind of you not to feel too concerned about us

Small pug it’s not petty. No woman wants to have to wash menstrual blood off hands or clothes if you have a leak in front of men. It’s an affront to women’s human dignity snd human rights. Depriving people of toilet facilities has been used by many oppressive regimes as a form of torture . Yes the examples of losing single sex prisons snd refuges are so appalling that no right thibking person would even consider it acceptable but every woman uses the loo several times a day and it is a repeat exposure to degrading sexist behaviour that creates a hostile environment for women. As a menopausal woman I’d worry every day working at your place that I would have to deal with heavy unpredictable periods in a hostile environment. I certainly wouldn’t be working effectively having to think on a period day .. I need to change but when can I go in the loos with no men around and I’d no doubt spend a lot longer in the loo trying to dodge men

This is awful OP. So wrong in so many ways.
Firstly, I think you need to point out that they have changed the toilets from single sex to mixed sex, despite the fact they seem to be claiming that they haven’t. A piece of fruit can’t be both an apple and a pear at the same time – it is one of the other. Likewise, toilets are either single sex or mixed sex – they can’t be both things at the same time. Men can come in the Ladies, or they cannot. With the signs you describe, men can come into these toilets – any and all men. They may have intended to make them inclusive of only those men with a female identity, but their signs don’t clarify this – so whether they meant to or not, they have turned single sex toilets into mixed sex ones.
Having clarified this, I think you can then ask if they are aware of the law surrounding the provision of single-sex toilet provision in the workplace? A helpful link seems to have been provided above. And ask about the impact assessment. Ask what was the process of consultation with female users, as you don’t seem to have been included in it? Also start asking for the details of the people/person who made the decision (possibly somebody other than the person you are communicating with). It sometimes possible to find somebody else to complain to who is more flexible and who actually sets the policy.
As for the person above who suggested there was something trivial about a woman asking for advice about how to protect their legal rights ON A FEMINISM BOARD - respectfully, I think you have stumbled across the wrong bit of the internet given your interests and beliefs. This is the feminism board - for defending our rights. Clues in the name.

Thanks dumpling - those are really helpful ways of putting it. I've already mentioned the law and sent the link and they seem a bit confused, but the info above makes it really clear. x

Wow @dumpling23

Brilliantly and clearly put

@SapphosRock

Why on earth was my post deleted?

Not all toilets are separated by sex. Many businesses have unisex loos, particularly agencies or small businesses.

OP in my opinion making a fuss over unisex toilets at work and pre-empting issues when it's not actually causing any problems could be seen as crying wolf, especially as there are so many other things women have to deal with in the workplace.

That's....not what crying wolf means. At all.