Tricky: Is TERF a slur? BBC Radio 4

[HecatesCats]

^Political commentator Dominique Samuels, Relationship educator Esther De La Ford, Ph.D. student Bec Wonders and artist Ruby Streek discuss the acronym TERF (Trans-exclusionary radical feminist).

Some of our panel consider it an insult while for others it’s a factual term for transphobic behaviour. They all agree that it’s a source of division and tension amongst feminists. Is it being used to shut down those who have concerns about unintended consequences of trans-activism or a valid way of calling out intolerance?^

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p08xw9jg

"Ask your husband what he thinks", give me strength. Maybe JKR should run everything by her male chaperone first? God only knows how she produced a string of bestsellers as a single mum without a chap by her side!

Not all of it's shite (until she somehow utterly fails to connect the dots somewhere in the middle), but am so put off by the arrogance of this pipsqueak lecturing a woman twice her age by reeling off a series of uninspired and unsubstantiated statements without even bothering to do the legwork of qualifying them.

The irony of posh young voices talking about privileged older white women was astonishing.

Ha ha yes. I initially found it quite difficult to work out who was who but then I realised that the “anti-TERFs” were the northerner (Dominique) and the (presumably) Canadian (Bec) and the other two were the ones with the interchangeable southern English middle class nice-girl accents. To state that TERFs were “generally privileged, older, white straight women” and later on cite as examples Julie Bindel and Janice Turner, who are both from working class backgrounds and, in the case of Julie Bindel, a lesbian, just highlighted their ignorance and the baseless projection involved in their arguments. Also as I think Bec pointed out, the cases going through the courts in the UK at the moment involve working class women of colour.

I've just taken a look at Ruby's Twitter account. Do you think the BBC checked it out before inviting her on? There's her pinned Tweet, for a start, and then some other disturbing stuff — sucking cock seems a recurring theme. I wanted to be angry with her but this is surely a woman in need of help — not exposure on Radio 4.

Is this is? Is this the future for the BBC? Making dozens of respected and mature journalists redundant to save money and filling the gaps with people like Ruby?

velour I was just going to post that. What kind of feminist advises a woman tocheck with her husband before speaking? I can't work out if Sarah is genuine or if she's trying to suggest that because JKR is straight she doesn't count. Very odd statement.

"CIS or non trans women"
I would love if someone started saying CIS or non-male women.

Yes, if "sex and gender are different" and JK Rowling was wrong to say that people are claiming there is no such thing as biological sex, we can at least have "female women", surely? I suspect not. I'd like to know why not.

she'd builder you're giving a more charitable reading than I am capable of.

My suspicion is Ruby's thought process (insofar as we can dignify her Twitter stream of consciousness ramblings in that way) went " ooh, someone's said the phrase 'sex positive feminism', that must mean being a feminist (and a socialist) is all about liking sex, great I like sex [don't we all, love] therefore I am a feminist, yay go me, and any women who disagree with me must not be proper feminists and furthermore, must all be dried up old prudes."

I think the basic problem is that she's not the brightest bulb in the light fitting.

They don't really have a real grasp on what women they label @erfs are doing as they are self isolated from it. They can't get passed their audible shock at women speaking about women and not meaning both sexes. It's good for them to hear women speaking unapologetically that way. They might react with anger first but if they genuinely are open minded and willing to learn they will think about why that is.

I'm no slut shamer but if your sexual urges dominate your public engagement you aren't contributing much of interest to public discourse.

Ah so heterophobic as well as sexist, racist, ageist and classist. Is there any form of prejudice against others that they don't embrace?

I look forward to hearing from these muppets in about 20 years time to hear how they feel following two decades of additional life experience, and whether now as older women they feel they should present themselves for elimination a la Logan's Run as past all use, or whether they feel that their views, feelings, humanity has a relevance and insight that maybe a highly arrogant, prejudiced and naiive younger woman might not understand or respect?

I think the basic problem is that she's not the brightest bulb in the light fitting.

Having looked at that twitter feed, I think it's a bit more than that. I agree with Shedbuilder, the BBC should handle someone who's self description is 'hot mess' and who incessantly tweets degrading things about themselves with kid gloves.

She was previously on the podcast to discuss her MH issues- what sort of eejit follows that with 'while you are here, fancy weighing in on one of the most acrimonious areas of public debate'.

I honestly don't think we should discuss her anymore- there's nothing rational to argue with and the attention will only be toxic to her.

On a more cheerful note- thankyou to MNHQ for reinstating my comment from 18.33 on Tuesday.

Aparently the monitors reported it for being 'incendiary'. It seems using an Arabic word for religious purists to describe the other side (a nerdy pun on the Frank Herbert Dune books, in case anyone was confused) means implying they are terrorists.

Comedy gold.

I tried listening to the Are Pronouns Important one but I couldn’t cope with all the tedious self-absorption.

Me too.
I genuinely wanted to listen to the whole thing but it was 4 people just agreeing with each other that preferred pronouns are really important.

1 transman he/him, 1 transwoman she/her, 1 NB they/them, 1 drag queen (male, obv) she/her.

"People make sure to get pronouns right for dogs, when they're told which to use, but they can't do it for people?"

@donquixotedelamancha I agree that there is no further merit in discussing Ruby here and that there is a vulnerability that is upsetting. The BBC however do have a responsibility to a. present this argument robustly via a presenter who can stand behind an argument and b. look out for the welfare of a young person they are publicly platforming. She did spectacularly reveal the lack of logic and background knowledge behind this particular viewpoint. The phrase "hung out to dry" springs to mind.

They can't get passed their audible shock at women speaking about women and not meaning both sexes. It's good for them to hear women speaking unapologetically that way. They might react with anger first but if they genuinely are open minded and willing to learn they will think about why that is.

Yes, that really stood out to me. I wonder if that was the bit Ruby was so angry about?

Joody yeah, I agree. Very poor.

Aparently the monitors reported it for being 'incendiary'.

I would report that comment as comparing you to an arsonist.

I finally got around to listening to the Tricky podcast. That was interesting, particularly because the format meant that it was apparent which arguments were clear and which were muddled.

The differences between the two sides were noticeable. The trans ally side were all "we must be nice", "Feminism is fighting for everyone's rights", and seemed to be a conveyor belt of strawpersons. They gave the impression of coming from considerable privilege.

The gender critical side scored some good hits with a convincing explanation of how "TERF" is a shorthand to abuse women and to avoid engaging with the issues and also made clear in which direction the abuse in the debate is flowing and who really is being violent to trans people. But I wish the gender critical side would drop their fucking obsession with "bathrooms". This is miserably weak compared to talking about women's prisons or girls' changing rooms, which enable your average person to immediately grasp what the point is.