Tricky: Is TERF a slur? BBC Radio 4

[HecatesCats]

^Political commentator Dominique Samuels, Relationship educator Esther De La Ford, Ph.D. student Bec Wonders and artist Ruby Streek discuss the acronym TERF (Trans-exclusionary radical feminist).

Some of our panel consider it an insult while for others it’s a factual term for transphobic behaviour. They all agree that it’s a source of division and tension amongst feminists. Is it being used to shut down those who have concerns about unintended consequences of trans-activism or a valid way of calling out intolerance?^

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p08xw9jg

It's all so progressive

You surely have to be brainwashed to believe that nonsense. I mean, surely?

That said though, I'm sure there are plenty disseminating it who don't believe it but gain in some way from appearing to.

I think what I took from this episode is that for many women Feminism is a cool badge to wear but not much else. They talk about Patriarchy like it's some seperate entity, like defering to a man and changing your language to make men feel better is not a fundamental part of it.

What is that woman saying? That she wants cross dressing to be embedded into a child's psyche as an identity and anyone not believing that the child actually becomes the opposite sex for all purposes as a result is bad. JKR in particular?

I don't know @Escapeplanning I know loads of people who "cross dressed" as children, self expression is how we grow. Society seems to be regressing.

I found it high on emoting and low on coherent sense too.

The child surely is welcome to dress in and play with whatever they like: any 'coding' is in the mind of the perceiver and they need to unstereotype themselves, not try to shift the child's identity to better fit themselves. The fact is that a male child will always be a male child, whether they grow up to choose to name themselves as male or as a TW, and pretending this is not the case isn't a kindness. Shunning people who point this out in defence of women's rights is ridiculous.

They have really had a number done on them. They seem to be fighting shadows.

I listened to the TERF one. I thought the two participants who objected to the term 'cis-woman', Dominique and (especially) Bec, were really good.

The other two, Esther and Ruby, just came across as being incredibly poorly informed. They possessed the typical naivety/ ignorance of many young lib fems regarding the violence directed towards women by men (JK Rowling is “capitalising off this fear-mongering, which yeah there might be valid concerns but it’s minuscule, and hypothetical at the moment, I think that other journalists like Janice Turner and Julie Bindel and that kind of ilk, are really jumping on to this idea and installing fear into the women of this country”) Yes, Julie Bindel is a scaremonger.

Also “women have been afforded a level of security from the patriarchy through all the years we’ve been fighting…for our rights and that comes through the oppression of others because it exists within this framework.” Rejoice sisters! We’ve achieved equality now and we should extend our good fortune towards others who are in greater need.

I tried listening to the Are Pronouns Important one but I couldn’t cope with all the tedious self-absorption.

So Sarah Keyworth believes there is such a thing as "male genitalia"? And claims that "no-one who advocates for trans rights is denying that biological sex exists"? (By that logic, then, anyone who denies biological sex exists is not advocating for trans rights - I'll bear that in mind...)

More seriously, how the hell can someone - seemingly in all seriousness - say in one sentence that 'X is different from males because they like pink' and then go on to say 'the things that make up what we understand to be gender - [...] blue/pink - is so loaded with expectation that it is toxic and damaging'.

How can you not follow your own train of logic for more than one sentence? and do people genuinely understand 'blue/pink' to "be gender"? I've read a bit about gender (still not sure what it is) and generally speaking the idea that it's colours is... a bit offensive?

Also “women have been afforded a level of security from the patriarchy through all the years we’ve been fighting…for our rights and that comes through the oppression of others because it exists within this framework.”

This is the most presumptious bit. These young women are not part of the "all the years we've been fighting" as they were not actually alive or productive adults at the time. They should refrain from claiming any involvement other than being the fortunate beneficiaries of the work of others before them.

Lecturing the women that have done this about "fear mongering" is mouthing the words men have trained them to say.

You can only stand back and laugh at them.

I saw Sarah K in London a couple of years ago. Her entire show was gender critical and utterly hilarious. I don’t know how she can’t see we’re all saying the same thing.

twitter.com/burlybosoms/status/1326132741268787200

''a podcast i was on talking about terfs in feminism came out today and listening to the other guests on it is making me so fucking angry that i'm going on a run''

Oh bless her, I think she realises how badly she came across.

The Sarah Keyworth programme was sensible overall. There are two sexes, gendered expectations have become attached to the sexes, and the gendered expectations are restrictive. There's much I could quibble with but overall the views existed in a rational framework.

However, at the end of the programme she trailed how in the next episode she is going to examine gender identity, which I assume is where the magical thinking will be rolled out. There are 4 programmes.

I listened to the TERF one this morning. The irony of posh young voices talking about priviledged older white women was astonishing. I wonder if either of them understand that they were birthed by real women to spout this rubbish. I am sorry to be blunt but this ridiculous attitude and the airtime it is given makes me seethe. How the hell did we produce this this entitled, ignorant and ungrateful generation. Give them back the 70s.

@sourdoughismyreligion

twitter.com/burlybosoms/status/1326132741268787200

''a podcast i was on talking about terfs in feminism came out today and listening to the other guests on it is making me so fucking angry that i'm going on a run''

Oh bless her, I think she realises how badly she came across.

I just had a look at her twitter feed on the back of your post, and, my, oh, my.

Secret Diary of Adrian Mole Aged 13 3/4. Or it would be if she had more intellectual maturity. Or indeed intellect. Of any sort.

Why on earth would the BBC think this person could make intelligent comments on the radio? I mean, surely some sort of rudimentary quality control when deciding on guests for a panel discussion might be a good editorial policy in future.

Has she founded a whole career on being photographed next to Lil OJ, wearing a t-shirt saying "will suck dick for socialism."

Has she founded a whole career on being photographed next to Lil OJ, wearing a t-shirt saying "will suck dick for socialism."

Wow, is that who it was?

I listened to the tricky one last night and the 2 women wanting to include everyone in their feminism had lost track of what the point of feminism was. One even admitted she wasn't even sure feminism was the right label for her beliefs. It's more a desire to protect and centre vulnerable people or those considered vulnerable. That's socialism. Feminism centres females including right wing and wealthy women, often right wing wealthy women have helped women's rights alot because they have the time and money to focus on campaigning.

‘ factual term for transphobic behaviour’. Er, no. What’s ‘transphobic’ is subjective.

Eg TRAs consider it transphobic to want single sex facilities, sports and services.

That stream of tweets is a very dispiriting read. It's woefully lacking in boundaries and self-respect.

To be honest, both of the young women arguing in favour of using the Terf term, seem to me to be victims of our pornographised culture. Although their arguments made me angry, I feel bad and sorry for them. Maybe those of us who are older should take some responsibility for not taking a stronger and more collective stand against it while we could. Or maybe that is impossible to do now in our technological age. The achievements that they both cite in life to date seem to be centred around sexual behaviour. It is such a small and (sorry) unsatisfying focus. When I was younger I looked up to women older than myself, I was in awe of the achievements of the glass ceiling breakers, artists, writers, scientists and political commentators. Sex was there, but secondary. Nowadays it is so totally in your face, all the time. Young people need to see there is more to life than sex.

@Escapeplanning I realised just now that you had already said what I was trying to say, but with less ire and more articulacy. I agree

It really is sad, maybe they are completely different in real life and it is bravado? I love Dominique. This is why I don't bother with Radio 4 anymore, why reward these bizarre attention seekers.

I've just listened to it. I cringed. A lot.

The most was when Ruby described herself: "aka BurlyBosoms, best known for creating the "I Suck Dick for Socialism" t shirt"

One even admitted she wasn't even sure feminism was the right label for her beliefs.

And I said out loud "why not fuck off out of it, and leave people who do understand what the point of it is to get on with it then".