Just read Abigail Shrier’s Book

[Wandawomble]

What an eye opener and very reflective of what I’m seeing with my kids in their schools and their friend groups.
Fantastic read and would highly recommend to anyone concerned about this. I got it as the audio book.

It's QAnon for children.
Repetition of basic ideas, a subject that can never truly be finished or encapsulated and is always changing and developing, an in-group that makes you feel special and clever while simultaneously threatening you with expulsion and severe consequences. And it can only truly thrive online, away from criticism.

Excellent point MondayYogurt . Yet none of our institutions (including child safeguarding institutions) appear able to see this, so strong are the sanctions for speaking up for the safety of girls

For those who haven't read Abigail Shrier's book, here's a really interesting podcast that she made with Jo Rogan. It's such a good listen:

[quote Wandawomble]@napody
You are right, sorry I worded that clumsily and probably misquoted the good comment on the other deleted thread. Add your comment to my thing I was trying to say 😂

The fact they are girls is creating an oppressive structure from the boys in their classes as they are being exposed to porn via the boys etc as just a start along with all the other things we know.[/quote]
Don't apologise I was pretty sure I was preaching to the converted!
It is a really interesting point though.... it absolutely does seem to be white middle class girls primarily. Their oppression is invisible since it's not acceptable to point out that females are still oppressed. Maybe it's a relief to them be able to speak about being oppressed, even if they have to attribute it to something else?

And you can only win accolades in the group by pushing the doctrine further. Simply repeating it is easy work, fit only for followers not leaders. To be recognised as extremely special the members must performatively exclude others, and performatively expand the ideology.

But she was desperate to fit in and has told me that labels help her belong.

I've heard this from a lot of young people too. They feel that labels give them an identity and help them to know how to interact and conduct themselves - there's rules and examples to follow. It's like there's this pressure on them to know who they are as soon as possible because that makes them more "authentic".

I'm also quite chilled by the idea that children are now 'exploring gender' and sexuality, and also by the increasing mainstream tolerance of paedophilia. I feel the two things create an intersection where CSA is less safeguarded against than it has been since the chid protection laws were first brought in.

The other thread being deleted is very worrying.

I'm also quite chilled by the idea that children are now 'exploring gender' and sexuality

I have seen some csa being spread by one of the NB teens. It was a story ‘created’ with a new friend they made on discord who was trans. It involved blood play, incest and familial orgy. In my mind, this is not something a teenage girl would ever dream up by themselves. So, I believe they were groomed and the girl spread it to her friends who were not expecting it and were horrified to read it.

Jesus Christ

When yo read that, no wonder they're all identifying as NB and asexual, poor kids.

I also find it worrying that this seems to be their only focus. Do you think this is largely a girl thing or just very recent. My son is 20 and always had a wide range of interests and friends and a firm grip on who he is, but I think being involved in team sport and the tools that gave him helped him a lot through the normal puberty wobbles.

That's horrific. Children are so vulnerable. Then things like the NSPCC incidents terrify me because it means that safeguarding organisations themselves are now a threat.

It is horrific. I haven’t told my daughter I read it but casually pointed out that I read on the news that there was an increase in teens involved with csa and clarified with her that teens sending this stuff could be in trouble a) they are spreading csa which is a crime but also b) often are groomed themselves. She looked even more horrified to realize that she has been exposed without any thought by this friend.

That's awful Winesalot Of course, it is a safeguarding matter as there's a child there who's being exposed to age inappropriate material.

I do worry that there's a massive naivety in schools who have been "Stonewalled'. They've been persuaded by this adult group that they should have 'LGBT groups" to support LGBT children. However children they (and the school) need boundaries. Creating groups of mixed age children to discuss issues relating to sexuality is a potential time bomb.

Schools have a clear purpose - learning and enabling children's social and emotional development. They're not venues for LGBT social groups for children. Schools are places where children see themselves as learners and social beings - part of large groups of different children learning to get on - not being siphoned off into narrow 'interest' groups. I'm probably not explaining this very well but year 7 children (just out of primary school) discussing sexuality with year 11 pupils is not appropriate. The focus of mixed age groups should be on sport, music etc - not discussing sexuality.
Yet this well established boundary for children is another one being eroded by adult groups. And it results in schools being unable to protect children from age inappropriate issues if they're being 'advised' in this way. And children will not internalise age appropriate boundaries if 'anything goes'.

My stepdaughter plays Roblox and there a game on there called Adopt Me - this is the wiki entry for it:
Adopt Me! is a massively multiplayer online role-playing game on the gaming platform Roblox. The original focus of the game wass a role-play wherein players pretend to be either parents adopting a child, or children getting adopted, but as the game was developed further, its focus shifted to being about adopting and caring for a variety of different virtual pets, who can be traded with other players.[2] As of October 2020, the game had been played upwards of fourteen billion times.[3] DreamCraft, the independent studio behind the game employs roughly 30 people, and has accumulated a total of $16 million dollars in revenue, mostly from microtransactions.[4][5] The game was averaging 600,000 concurrent players as of June 2020, making it the most popular game on Roblox.[2]

So here’s an issue. I noticed a lot of her gaming revolves around trying to have relationships with other children. Quite often these kids have their sexuality advertised in their profiles. Apparently polysexual, pansexual etc are all there and very common.
The comment earlier about incest play and blood play etc - I wonder if it’s starting in games like this as well as incest now being a massive thing in porn. The kids talk about being depressed a lot too which leads me to think that the self harm talk is happening in game also.

So this child would be looking for others to have a relationship with and then they would “adopt” another child. She started doing this when she was 6 and now she’s 8 and I’ve just made her dad put limits on it again for the umpteenth time.

On some of the fetish sites there’s a lot of talk about “adopt me” style role play too. I think an overlap may be occurring, whereby a child’s game of mummys and daddys is getting turned into something else.
Something else I notice is the Gacha community have a lot of weird videos on YouTube with these weird toxic “relationships.” Again this child was watching a lot of those videos.

I've just bought the audiobook; thanks for the recommendation.

Obviously the book was never going to go down well in some quarters but this from a journalist at the New Yorker is shocking:

twitter.com/fickleskittle/status/1327313858684448770

For some on the right side of history, the contents of the book fall somewhere between "inconvenient truth" and "LOL!"

The reliably unpleasant Grace Lavery also gets in on the act:

twitter.com/graceelavery/status/1327350356683202561

Yet Target reinstated it quickly.

twitter.com/asktarget/status/1327368417167478784?s=21

I'd missed that. Very reassuring to see. Let's hope this is part of commercial enterprises becoming aware that their interests are best served by just getting on with business rather than playing at identity politics.

The stalking, reporting and deleting has become so much more frequent in recent months. It is very difficult to even raise this as a problem though, because even that gets deleted.

I've bought it and read it and highly recommend it. It's a very interesting book, especially the case studies of the girls, who see transistioning as being the answer to much teenage angst. The role of ubiquitous, violent, abusive porn. Who would want to be a woman when that means being humiliated, abused, choked, raped? The cult like nature of it, and the role of the internet.

Below is an interesting paper showing a very welcome sharp downturn in the numbers of young people applying to gender clinics in Sweden. It follows the release of the documentary about trans treatment and the paucity of the evidence base for it, and a prominent Swedish transwoman saying they would not have transitioned had they known how little evidence there was.

genderreport.ca/the-swedish-u-turn-on-gender-transitioning/

Yet Target reinstated it quickly

She said in her interview with Joe rogan, this book isn't about trans people its about the mental health of girls. Why are people so opposed or angry or upset about looking into the mental health of teenage girls....

Why are people so opposed or angry or upset about looking into the mental health of teenage girls...

I notice we didn’t get a reply to that very question posed in many different ways to one of our regular male posters on another thread Scully. And never any acknowledgement that their experience is not that of the current cohort.

That same poster also wouldn’t tell us what in this book was incorrect and declined to tell us if they’d actually read it despite saying how it was full of lies. Mmmm... full of case studies from interviews from parents, transitionioners, detransitioners and NOT one person coming forward to say they were misrepresented.

And the professionals all have many years experience transitioning patients and saying something isn’t working with the current approach. Not trying to stop all transitions, but trying to get better tailored and evidence based treatments. Ie. More studies into what is and isn’t working.

Quite a thing to argue against isn’t it?

It is...

Someone else or someone else's child having mental health issues that may or may not contribute to their gender identity crisis has absolutely nothing to do with the validity of someone else's identity.

Different people will need different things and neither course of action is about anyone else but the person involved

And as I said on a previous thread. How can wanting good evidence based health care and being fully informed about risks and benefits etc be a bad thing.

Everyone deserves the best health care possible.

I will always view with great suspicion a middle-aged man being keen on safeguards being removed around girls and young women to enable drastic and life-changing medical interventions, and particularly those that lead to sterilisation. Obviously if I say what might be in the background of this, my comment would be deleted.

I am also highly suspicious of a male, who have their own families, callously disregarding children and teenager’s fertility and sexual future. Particularly females.

Like there is a complete disconnect with the sex of those they identify as.

[quote nauticant]Obviously the book was never going to go down well in some quarters but this from a journalist at the New Yorker is shocking:

twitter.com/fickleskittle/status/1327313858684448770

For some on the right side of history, the contents of the book fall somewhere between "inconvenient truth" and "LOL!"

The reliably unpleasant Grace Lavery also gets in on the act:

twitter.com/graceelavery/status/1327350356683202561[/quote]
A Professor at Berkeley who advocates book burning?