'To say that some men rape and sexually assault women and girls is an uncontroversial fact'

[HecatesCats]

Kathleen Stock has written an excellent blog reflecting on the alleged rape in Mitcham and how best to protect women and girls from dangerous men:

'Other than teaching women self-protection, a second thing a society can do to reduce rape and sexual assault is to encourage safeguarding social norms to get embedded, so that it becomes unusual and indeed remarkable for men to be in public areas where women and girls undress or sleep.'

kathleenstock.com/noticing-reality/

The original story:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8910225/Pictured-Man-hunted-police-rape-attack-teenage-girl-South-London.html

The continual suggestion that trans women are sexual predators does come across as scaremongering to me when it is men that are the problem.

That is not what she is saying and that is not what women on this thread are saying. Firstly letting male people self identify as female is a safeguarding issue, it means people who wouldn't otherwise have entered female spaces are given carte blanche to do so. This means they could have a beard and a penis and self-identify as female, which some do, and be given permission to enter spaces previously reserved for girls and women. Self-Id is a charter for people without good intent to take advantage of new freedoms. This. Is. A. Safeguarding. Issue.

Secondly, the Swedish study shows no difference in offending rates between transwomen and males, as Wellbehaved says:

Transition doesn't alter sex, and it doesn't alter offending pattern behaviour, either. And between 80-90% of trans people have no hormone or surgical treatment at all.

Thirdly, I would ask who benefits and who gains? The number of transpeople in the population is minuscule, as you yourself attest Sapphos. To ask women and girls who make up a far larger cohort to put concerns to one side and embrace mixed sex spaces or to accept any one who says they are a woman in female only spaces benefits a tiny minority. We have seen in Wales - where the government has insisted all new school toilets be mixed sex - that girls have stayed off school and are suffering period shame:

Pupils are missing school because they don't like mixed sex toilets and 'period shaming' is one of the main issues

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/education/pupils-missing-school-because-dont-15839558

I have yet to hear a convincing argument that mixed sex facilities are good for women and girls:

UNISEX CHANGING ROOMS PUT WOMEN AT DANGER OF SEXUAL ASSAULT, DATA REVEALS

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

So why are we being asked to make these wholesale changes in all areas of life when instinct and data raises alarm bells. Who benefits and who loses?

HecatesCats I don't get me wrong, I don't think males should be able to identify into female spaces. I just don't agree with the trans women may be sexual predators angle as it does nothing to persuade people who genuinely believe TWAW. Also stats show how incredibly rare TW assaults on women in female spaces are.

I think a more compelling argument is that many women read trans women as male, particularly in female spaces. This can trigger a trauma response (20% of women have been victim to male sexual assault) and women need and deserve single sex spaces to avoid this.

You might think it is the same argument but it's not.

'I don't want to use the same toilet as a trans woman as I'm afraid I'll be assaulted' seems quite far fetched and could come across as transphobic.

'I don't want to discuss my sexual assault with a trans woman as I read them as male' is entirely reasonable. Nobody would want their mum, sister or daughter to face that situation.

This blog by Karen Ingala Smith comes from a different angle and I believe will resonate with people who are not already GC.

kareningalasmith.com/2020/07/08/trauma-informed-services-for-women-subjected-to-mens-violence-must-be-single-sex-services/

So the fact that some transwomen may only assault women in non female spaces means they are safe to include in female only spaces? The fact is that there are no stats which prove transwomen are less of a risk to women than other males . If males are excluded because they are sometimes dangerous to women that includes all transwomen because they too are all male.

SapphosRock your calculations start off with such a basic error its no wonder your made up statistics are absurd.

You have assumed that 510,000 women experiencing sexual assault equates to number of convictions to get your 0.003%.

Out of that 500,000 approximately only 10% approx will report to the police. Out of the numbers reported to the police in 2019 only 1.7% resulted in a summons (note were still not talking conviction) source www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/rape-prosecution-england-wales-victims-court-cps-police-a8885961.html article based on CPS data.

I’m not going to look up the % court cases that result in a conviction because that is depressingly low but it will be in the CPS data www.cps.gov.uk/publications

Your ‘calculations’ are as bogus as your made up ‘statistics’.

The stats for trans sexual assaults on women need to be looked at in the light of stats for the percentage of trans in the male population, don't they? Even if there are 200,000 trans people (about which statistic I have to say I have my doubts, given its source), out of a population of 34,000,000, that's not a high proportion of that population.

I don't want to share my spaces or discuss my assault with a transwoman because I read them as male. Is that acceptable to you @SapphosRock or am I only allowed to read them as male when they couldn't physically assault me?

Nobody should have to " read" them as male , they are male and that should be enough to exclude them from female safe places.

IAmNotAGirl even the conviction rate x 100 is still only 0.3% of all assaults on women, as per my post.

Clymene that's the exact point I made, reading them as male is a typical, normal female response and nobody can deny a woman's feeling or experience. Suggesting trans women are dangerous on the basis of being born male is easily disproven by stats and isn't a powerful persuasion tactic to anyone not already GC.

" Clymene that's the exact point I made, reading them as male is a typical, normal female response and nobody can deny a woman's feeling or experience. Suggesting trans women are dangerous on the basis of being born male is easily disproven by stats and isn't a powerful persuasion tactic to anyone not already GC."

What stats? There are no stats that prove transwomen are less dangerous than other males!

Copying this from the pronouns thread because it's relevant and it bears repeating:

expecting girls to pretend boys and men are not boys and men is a safeguarding issue

That still only makes 0.3% of sexual offenders transgender.

It may be that only a small number of sexual offenders are called Brian. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t object to men called Brian in women’s spaces.

Or even if they are called Brianna!

SapphosRock you are trying to derail the discussion with your fake stats. You had no source for your original assertion, your first set of assumptions were bogus, your latest assumption also has no basis. You don’t state a source for these assumptions because You have made your numbers up and you’re throwing made up stats around on the Trump principle that if you state your ‘Alternative facts’ with confidence someone will believe you.

I am not wasting anymore time on you but I really hope your job doesn’t depend on you being truthful, accurate or require any maths

The made up numbers come really surprisingly close to the percentage of trans people in the population: 0.3% in each case.

(0.3% of sexual assaults on women are committed by trans people according to SR, 0.3% of the population is trans according to figures from Stonewall.)

But only half the population is male.

Oh my gosh I hope nobody on this thread is hoping to pass GCSE maths.

I made the numbers up because the actual true reported numbers of sexual crimes committed by trans people are miniscule. It's 17. 17 trans people were charged with commuting a sexual offense in 2019 (15 were convicted). Many were online (possession of indecent images etc).

transcrimeuk.com/2019-convictions/

This is 0.003% of all sexual crime.

Anything over and above this figure is guesswork unless anyone on the thread can demonstrate otherwise?

As MOJ figures show that almost half the transgender prisoners in male prison are sex offenders compared with 19% of the other men there would appear to be some discrepancy in your figures

@334bu

As MOJ figures show that almost half the transgender prisoners in male prison are sex offenders compared with 19% of the other men there would appear to be some discrepancy in your figures

You don't think people are taking advantage do you?! Surely that would never happen...

Sorry I didn't mean people I meant men.

@334bu

As MOJ figures show that almost half the transgender prisoners in male prison are sex offenders compared with 19% of the other men there would appear to be some discrepancy in your figures

Do you have the figures for the number of trans sexual offenders in prison vs the number of male sexual offenders?

I think a more compelling argument is that many women read trans women as male, particularly in female spaces. This can trigger a trauma response (20% of women have been victim to male sexual assault) and women need and deserve single sex spaces to avoid this.
Well I kind of agree sapphos but when you start down this path you get the argument back that its transphobic to suggest TW don't pass and unfair to discriminate between passing and nonpassing TW. Which I also agree with.

Why is the onus on women to find an acceptable argument why they need male free space? As soon as we have to do that, we are on the back foot because someone will pick it apart.

I'd much prefer the default to be that we have female only space and there needs to be an argument why that can be removed (that isn't "be kind")

Many were online (possession of indecent images etc).
thats a minimisation. Only 2 on that list were about possession of indecent images, out of 30 offences listed. 17 were sexual crimes and most of those were child abuse.

I looked it up. As at 31 March 2018 there were 13,562 prisoners serving sentences for sexual offences, which represented 19% of the sentenced prison population.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/702297/omsq-q4-2017.pdf

There are 22 trans women in females prisons (still 22 too many) and 97 in male prisons. 19% of which are sex offenders.

Therefore, as per my original statement, 99.9% of the time the problem is men.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/07/09/one-50-prisoners-identify-transsexual-first-figures-show-amid/amp/

@SapphosRock
A quick good would show you it's 13,000. So transwomen make up a tiny percentage of incarcerated men. That really isn't the point because there is no danger of most of those 13,000 being held with women and babies.

Perhaps you do everyone on the thread a favour and read about it

fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-prisoners/