'To say that some men rape and sexually assault women and girls is an uncontroversial fact'

[HecatesCats]

Kathleen Stock has written an excellent blog reflecting on the alleged rape in Mitcham and how best to protect women and girls from dangerous men:

'Other than teaching women self-protection, a second thing a society can do to reduce rape and sexual assault is to encourage safeguarding social norms to get embedded, so that it becomes unusual and indeed remarkable for men to be in public areas where women and girls undress or sleep.'

kathleenstock.com/noticing-reality/

The original story:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8910225/Pictured-Man-hunted-police-rape-attack-teenage-girl-South-London.html

Was the Sec 60 because people were angry and going out looking for the rapist?

I think so. His image was also shared via sm to warm other local parents.

That is such a good piece of writing. I would love to use this as the basis for a conversation with a Fourth Wave feminist. Or a TRA prepared to talk with someone like me.

I think one of the pivotal thoughts on the whole issue is that some people think that a Male wishing to transition into a Female, is the type of man who ISN’T one of those men who wishes to rape or perv on women. And some people think that the women who want to retain women-only spaces, think that a Male wishing to transition into a Female, IS the type of man who wants to rape or perv on women. I believe neither of those things.

To some women, it’s like any man that genuinely wishes to live life ‘as’ a woman, automatically eradicates any Male tendency within themselves to sexual violence against women. Or there might be an acceptance that in the ‘very rare cases’ someone who is transgender and perpetrates such a crime, is not REALLY transgender.

And you end up in a loop of both ‘Not all men are rapists’, ‘trans people aren’t perverts’ and so on and so on...

And all I’m saying, and seemingly Stock is saying is, ‘let’s lower the opportunity for the ‘exceptions to the rules’ and the ‘very rare cases’, to have access to vulnerable women and girls in the first place. Let’s make the women and the girls our priority because they’re the ones most at risk here.

That’s it isn’t it??

@Siameasy

So dreadful Was the Sec 60 because people were angry and going out looking for the rapist?

Yes. The original video was posted on local Facebook groups, and from the comments it seemed people were intending to go and look for the perpetrator at specific addresses.

Siameasy
*So dreadful
Was the Sec 60 because people were angry and going out looking for the rapist?
Yes. The original video was posted on local Facebook groups, and from the comments it seemed people were intending to go and look for the perpetrator at specific addresse*s.

Oh well, can't have people taking the law into their own hands

I liked her blog post. I really liked how she did give passing mention to other issues like where she said that men are sexually assaulted too, but that’s not what she intends to address now. Its good to acknowledge when a crime affects others and then move on.

I really liked how she stated the facts- some men rape and sexually assault women and girls. I hate it when people generalise absolutely hate it- statements like “men are rapists”. Language is important to me and I respect a view point more when it’s expressed the way she did it with accurate bare facts stated simply. It takes a bare second to say “some men are rapists” after all and just that qualifier turns a sexist generalisation into an incontestable fact.

@DrizzleandDamp

My rape was also a date rape and I'm sorry you feel like that. I don't feel the same way because what she said is still true - some men rape and sexually assault women. Unfortunately for you and me, that man was a man we trusted not to do that.

It is a fact that women are at risk of violence every time they are alone with a man. As a single women living alone, I am at a much lower risk of sexual violence than a woman living with a man.

But 99.9% of the time the perpetrators are men not trans women.

98% of sexual offences are committed by men.

Where is the evidence that transition (whether medicalized or not) has any effect on the offending rate of men who have become trans women?

'Study suggests that transwomen exhibit a male pattern of criminality'

This Swedish study found:

Transwomen are 6 times more likely to commit a crime and 18 times more likely to commit a violent crime compared to female controls. But transwomen commit crime, including violent crime, at a similar rate as any other males in the general population.

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

Ultimately the point isn't are Transwomen committing high rates of sexual assault? The point is if we undertake a huge societal shift that allows male born people to access previously female only spaces, will male born people take advantage of this? The prison system offers some answers:

'We submitted Freedom of Information requests to the Ministry of Justice.
It said that 60 of the 125 transgender inmates it counted in England and Wales were serving time for a sexual offence.'

www.bbc.com/news/uk-42221629

One in 50 prisoners identifies as transgender amid concerns inmates are attempting to secure prison perks

One in 50 male offenders in prisons are self-identifying as transgenderr^, according to a survey by the official jail watchdog, amid concerns inmates may be attempting to secure extra perks.
The figure, the first by the watchdog, suggests there are up to 1,500 transgender inmates among the 90,000 prisoners in England and Wales, more than ten times previous estimates, and at least four times the number in the general population.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/07/09/one-50-prisoners-identify-transsexual-first-figures-show-amid/

Thanks HecatesCats. I thought that was the case. This quote from the article is apt:

Males as a group are reasonably excluded from these spaces in order to try to protect women and girls from a few of their number. We used to understand that; or better yet, we didn't used to pretend to misunderstand this.

Males as a group are reasonably excluded from these spaces in order to try to protect women and girls from a few of their number. We used to understand that; or better yet, we didn't used to pretend to misunderstand this.

Perfect

I don't mind the suggestion of self-defence classes for girls, I don't consider it victim-blaming or shifting responsibility, depending on the context, of course, and in this context she clarifies that's not what she's doing.

I think the point of self-defence classes is that it might work. A lot of opportunistic men might attack a girl or woman because they expect it to be easy and if the girl starts screaming, stamping, kicking back then the man might get a shock and let her go (and probably look for someone else, unfortunately).

Alternatively, the girl resisting and fighting back might make the man angry and he might become even more determined and punch/stab/kill you. If he does, it was not the girls fault for fighting back (though of course some men will try and claim it is. Women can't win, really).

There is no way of knowing which type of attacker you've got and whether freezing, or (trying to) fight or flight was the best, or least bad, option until after the attack. And even then, all 3 might have resulted in the same outcome.

But 99.9% of the time the perpetrators are men not trans women.

Firstly, how do you know? You can't assume they're men just because they look like men, they could be any gender at all.

And secondly, you've missed the point. Which is that female-only spaces keep out all the male people, including all the lovely harmless male people, because this is the best way of reducing the opportunity for the bad male people to be there and have the access and opportunity, by making the presence of an unknown male person a warning sign that women and girls can act upon.

Yes the way I see it is no person born male - however they do or do not identify - needs to take personal offence at the statistics. Unless they themselves commit crimes. But it would be wonderful if more males started to take responsibility for the crimes of their sex class. There are some good examples on twitter of both men and transwomen doing that.

There is no way of knowing which type of attacker you've got and whether freezing, or (trying to) fight or flight was the best, or least bad, option until after the attack.

To piggyback on this good comment, I just want to add that at least in my limited experience in the heat of the moment, you have no choice in whether you fight, flee or freeze. I found that I had an out of body experience and I was reacting with one or more of the above but it wasn’t a conscious decision. It happened so fast and was so overwhelming I can only compare it to when swimming in the ocean and a big wave just crashes down on you and you tumble through the water, bouncing off the seabed, maybe fighting to get back to surface or maybe just rolling until the wave lets go and you wash up. It seemed purely instinctual how I reacted. This to me, just further underscores that it is victim blaming of the worst sort when people sit and say “you should have fought/fled/froze...” when truly, in some attacks it is all reflex reactions. There’s not always time to weigh options and choose.

I'm so sorry Plan

This was a really good read, thanks for sharing. I agree that keeping single sex spaces is just basic safeguarding and I think most people were completely fine with that idea but somehow the whole issue of trans has just completely unhinged people from any kind of rational response.

Oh, it’s ok @HecatesCats. I didn’t post that for sympathy, i know I’m not alone. Just hoped to help anyone reading the thread who is struggling with the shame and guilt we get saddled with after an attack. All the “should have” “could have” that run through our heads are meaningless self-punishment because they imply we have choice when it happens. And so often, we do not have any choice at all. Survival is victory.

It was very moving

Great read.

Or maybe you’ve made a calculation, consciously or unconsciously, and decided that there’s no social capital to be had in feeling outraged about sexual violence against women; the cases are too common, and the rest of the world too indifferent to give you any credit for it. Looking at you, Radcliff and Radmayne and the rest of you.

Plan We’ve been on threads before about this.

The big wave analogy is a good one, it isn’t a choice. I flipped between freeze and appease. That appeasement was caught on camera and has so far been used as an excuse not to prosecute. if the CCTV had caught Mr x using force was the statement. Total misunderstanding of the reactions we have.

plan thanks for the wave analogy. I want to say it resonates... Without it seeming like a pun?!

drizzle appease is an important one to remember. How fucking shit this is being used against you. One of my ambitions used to be to try and find a way to bring trauma awareness to the greater public. Sparked by watching Piers Morgan massively misunderstand. I feel pretty despondent right now about that being possible.

When my body is scanned before I board a flight, I don't for a minute think that this is because security staff have me pegged as a terrorist.

But I understand that some people, a tiny number of people, do try to carry weapons on to planes, and that because there is no special aura that differentiates would-be terrorists from their fellow passengers, I naturally have to be scanned along with everybody else. I can't simply say, "Trust me, you don't need to scan me, I don't feel like a terrorist".

Perhaps I am oversimplifying it, but surely it should be this simple?

Looking at you, Radcliff
yup

@DrizzleandDamp. God that’s horrendous

It's a good analogy @cheeseismydownfall. I"m sure I've read somewhere that the crime rate of some males is identical regardless of gender identity and cross-sex hormones. I also heard a 'female' crime rate for murder doubled when a TWAW was convicted. sex matters. as Kathleen put it Most males are not predators. This is about tactics, not character reference. Males as a group are reasonably excluded from these spaces in order to try to protect women and girls from a few of their number.