"You can be the idea of a woman"

[Random63638]

Richard O'Brien is still my hero; www.theguardian.com/stage/2020/nov/05/richard-obrien-interview-rocky-horror-trans-crack-stroke-70s?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

I'm thinking of MB's comment in one of her videos about the need to 'expand the bandwidth of being male'. Why not this?

@YetAnotherSpartacus

I'm thinking of MB's comment in one of her videos about the need to 'expand the bandwidth of being male'. Why not this?

Yes, wouldn't it be wonderful if he'd said something along those lines?!

Yes. That would have been headline worthy!

The problem is, certainly for a lot of autogynephiles (and I'm not suggesting Richard O'Brien is one), being a feminine presenting man is pointless. The whole point is to think of themselves as a woman, not feminine males

Agreed. But I got the impression that ROB was more 'gender-queer' as it were.

Too many variations.... the Stonewall umbrellas has done it's job too well! Of course, you are right, Datun non AGP transwomen don't want any of that 'understanding' claptrap!

He's an intelligent man. He knows the word feminine exists, he knows that women are losing rights because of tra.

But in all of this, he is a man, it's all an intellectual exercise to him, as much as he intellectually knows this stuff, it doesn't actually affect him.

Plus, and not wanting to be agist here, there are things that you just don't think about changing, especially when waffling to someone in an interview I'd have thought. I'd still say that we'll 'tape a video', even though we haven't done that in 20 odd years, language persists, even if there's a more correct word for it (which is of course the real evolution of language, not this facist re-writing they're forcing on us)

Sorry, that was two thoughts in one, please delete the "non" before AGP!

But you can’t ever become a natural woman. I think that’s probably where Rowling is coming from

But she wasn't bloody talking about trans people, she was talking about women and the impact male violence has on us and our right to and need for single-sex spaces. He's makes it sound like Rowling is basing her opinion on "trans people are unnatural" as if "natural" has moral implications. It's just a slightly more sophisticated version of the "T*rfs find transwomen disgusting and that's why they don't want to share showers with us" calumny.

I always had that issue with the song... it took a man to make a woman feel like, well, a woman!

Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh! It's all too fucked up to contemplate!

But she wasn't bloody talking about trans people, she was talking about women

Quite. The whole point was that it isn't and can't in all fairness be all about trans people, or female people's needs as a group cannot be met.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Sorry, that was two thoughts in one, please delete the "non" before AGP!

Oh good, I'm glad you clarified, I was confused by that post!

It's so telling how wary he is of talking about it. A bit like another interview - was it Rupert Everett, or maybe grason Perry - basically said I can't discuss that it's too scary.

I thought the most interesting thing he said was that he thinks of himself as a different sex and that helps. I don't mind that. A way of thinking about oneself that helps you, while acknowledging that's what it is. Not 'I am...' but 'it helps me to think of myself as...'

There's such a variety of experiences, conditions (or whatever the word is) & ways of thinking of oneself all under the umbrella. And such a variety of beliefs & claims which underpin the different positions. Some seem barely connected to each other. They are not the same thing.

Sorry Datun

One thing this thread has highlighted for me is that the compartments I have built so as to retain the friendships (both of about 30 years) with a transman and an old fashioned tranny are crumbling.

I am finding it harder and harder to reconcile one's fetish, the normalising of it, having known him since we were all in our late teens. That jars heavily with the experiences of the transman and I really don't want to view him through any new, less accepting lens!

I have currently shaved the bottom halves of my shins to prevent straggly hairs poking out of my yoga trousers on the three occasions I made it to a class in a real live gym. The rest of my legs are au naturel. What gender am I?

It would be so much better to say 30% masculine and 70% feminine, and call it something different altogether, to explain your sartorial choices.

I agree. I'd be happy if we could keep the distinction between masculine/feminine (stereotypes, culture) and male/female (biology). And if we could accept that it's fine to be a feminine man or a masculine woman. That some things (like clothing choice) diverge on the masc/fem axis while others (prisons, Girl Guides, dating apps, etc.) should split male/female.

Precise language: it matters!

I’ve met many of these camp straight men. David William’s is another obvious one. They struggle with their own interpretation of Male and what is masculine. I can see why defining themselves as trans is helpful to them. I don’t think it’s accurate, I think we’d be better just not stereotyping the sexes. But I get it.

@namechange9357

I have currently shaved the bottom halves of my shins to prevent straggly hairs poking out of my yoga trousers on the three occasions I made it to a class in a real live gym. The rest of my legs are au naturel. What gender am I?

I've just put this in the analytical engine and it tells me that you are 37% male.

In terms of a definition, I don't think you can because, as I see it, there are two separate strands:

-those who desperately want to be seen and treated as the opposite sex (for any reason e.g. escaping sexual harassment, would rather be seen as straight than gay, crippling gender/body dysphoria, AGP)

-those who would quite like to be able to play football/wear nail varnish/other stereotype without people making judgements on it, but have given up and decided to call themselves non-binary or trans because it's easier. (Probably more camp boys fall into this one, whether gay or straight. It's easier to be an stereotype-ignoring woman.)

I liked this article. I get his viewpoint, I agree with much of what he said, I'm glad he's speaking up.

He DIDN'T say shaving makes you female, he said he thought it was feminising. A crucial difference.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Sorry Datun

One thing this thread has highlighted for me is that the compartments I have built so as to retain the friendships (both of about 30 years) with a transman and an old fashioned tranny are crumbling.

I am finding it harder and harder to reconcile one's fetish, the normalising of it, having known him since we were all in our late teens. That jars heavily with the experiences of the transman and I really don't want to view him through any new, less accepting lens!

It's very difficult. Because maintaining a delusion is key. It's fine if you view that delusion as harmless. But as soon as you start to see the implications and repercussions, the harm becomes more evident. And, at some point, your complicity becomes a real possibility.

And that's when the doubts start digging in their heels.

But as I've often said, this isn't about individuals. And as my sainted mother used to say, we sometimes need to get over rough ground lightly.

She also said pick your battles.

She was a wise one and no mistake.

Need to remember that most people don't use language like us. He is clear that he can't become a biological woman. But then says he is 30% female- I'm guess he isn't distinguising between man/woman/sex/gender/male/female in his words there.

It's very difficult. Because maintaining a delusion is key. It's fine if you view that delusion as harmless. But as soon as you start to see the implications and repercussions, the harm becomes more evident. And, at some point, your complicity becomes a real possibility. Yep!

I've managed, so far, to keep the individuals separate from the ideology. It helps that neither of them pretend they are anything other than a "tranny pervert" for one and an unhappy woman now living a happier masculine life [please don't anyone take umbrage, those are the words my transvestite friend uses, has used since the mid 80s, he is tapping 60 now, as are we all, it is his identity...]

But that rough ground is getting rougher... I may buy myself some all terrain thinking boots!

He DIDN'T say shaving makes you female, he said he thought it was feminising. A crucial difference.

But he did say that he was 30% female.

What is female if any man can declare himself part female?

When sad Sam Smith talks about having female thighs everyone takes the piss, when O'Brien talks about being part female it's fine?

What's the difference. It's all men erasing women and the language used to describe ourselves for their own needs and wants.

Well that's the bit I didn't agree on. But did he mean actual sex (doubt it, given the rest of the article) or his identity?