Guilty of hate speech at home?

[FeedTheSparrows]

Forgive me if there's already a thread on this, but an article in The Times today says: "The Law Commission has proposed removing the “dwelling exemption” from 34-year-old legislation covering “stirring up” offences in a move that its experts argue would clarify the law."

Apparently this would, "...criminalise dinner-table conversations in which casual comments were made about other nationalities or groups such as transgender people."

Here's a link to the piece: www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/extending-hate-speech-laws-to-private-homes-crazy-d7k99llrk

'Afraid I don't know how the share token thing works to get round the paywall. (Happy to learn for future ref!)

Took me a while to work out how to create them but as far as I know you can’t do it from the app.

FYI, You should be able to get sharetokens on the iPad app using one of the icons in the bottom right corner.

@FeedTheSparrows

I'm at least glad you don't think I have overreacted!

Who on earth would think you are overreacting? Maybe some ex Stasi who lost their jobs and power when the Wall came down. It is utterly terrifying and what’s more frightening that it could have got to the stage of being even considered. The film The Lives of Others should be compulsory viewing.

Why aren’t people in Scotland up I arms about it? Or maybe they are.

I hate the sound of this. And also, where do you draw the line at what is hate speech and what isn't?

We actually talk about what it means to be transgender quite a lot, as my stepson's best friend has recently said that he feels he is a female, and DSS has had a hard time coming to terms with that. He says he really likes his mate, but doesn't know if they will still be friends if he's a girl, or whether people will say things about them hanging round together, or even whether his mate likes him in a romantic way (s/he does like boys, but wasn't openly gay before all this).

So we talk this through a lot. What I try to impress on him is that we don't always have to understand, but we do have to accept. It's like, for me, because I was born female and feel female, I cannot imagine what it must be like to decide that you're a boy even though you were born a girl. It's such an alien concept to me. But I would obviously never treat anyone differently because I don't understand, because at the end of the day it's my problem, not theirs.

I suggested to DSS that he does the same, and he said he will try, but it's difficult.

Some of the things that were said around that table could well have been classed as 'hate speech', even though the overall arc of the conversation was educational and ultimately accepting, despite airing some feelings.

I can't explain properly .. but I don't want to have to stop talking about these things, and talking things through.

You know, I respect the desire of Scottish nationalists for their independence. I'm not Scottish so it's none of my business, so I have no opinion either way.

But I can't respect the desire to become to cradle of a new totalitarianism, with children shopping parents, and friends shopping friends to the authorities for wrong opinions.

I think many people have moved from 'fair play to them, scots independence is a fair enough desire' to - 'bloody hell this lot really are batshit crazy and shouldn't run a lemonade stand'. With the evidence of crazy being nothing to do with the original fine principles they stood on.

Sad but true. The Labour Party inspire very similar feelings in me.

It need not be proven since you'll find being questioned for a hate crime will be enough.

"No smoke without fire"

"in our job we must be above reproach"

"We have the company image to think about"

"I'm sorry, but we have to let you go"

That kind of thing is already happening. Humza Yousuf just wants to make it more efficient.

LastTrain - that’s exactly it and it’s so frightening.
Why are people not objecting more? Is it because to object is seen as condoning hate crime?

So the idea is that someone who’s parents think changing sex is impossible or a bad idea could report them to the police? Very 1984. I’m glad we have the 4th amendment here in the US.

Dark times coming! People are not paying attention.

I read something about it being like new blasphemy laws being snuck into legislation, hidden in plain sight.

Fucking scary!

‘Makes me think an obvious extension to this would be to form a lovely free club for children, primary aged branch and secondary aged branch, where they could meet, play games together, sing songs, learn all about right think, and be reminded of what and how to report their parents and family and neighbours.’

LGBT group at a Stonewall school.

The Scottish Hate crime bill only requires the other person to be offended (and be on the list of special people that does not include women). You will then be dragged through the courts and even if you are found to be innocent you will have been put through stress, time and cost. You will probably also have lost your job for being involved in a hate crime court case. It is the perfect tool for harassment but of course no one would ever misuse a bill designed to protect people from evil bigots would they?

And yes - Scottish people of all politics, religions, atheists, lawyers, police are up in arms against this.

Conditioning. Incremental pushes, nudges on the language, institutional capture, slowly dismantling social boundaries and systems developed to prevent actual criminal behaviour.

Why do you think there is so much pushback when we discuss these things? Most people involved are well meaning fools. And that's really all it takes.

That's the trick with totalitarianism - it gains the hold with permission at first, even by 'democratic vote' to begin with, and it sustains it by convincing that all is for the best reasons.

It's not just about transgender people, it's much bigger and wider than that. It's also about perceived hate speech in religion. So where does the line get drawn, will we be no longer to say that terrorism acts in the name of an old religion is wrong? That it's hate speech? This is the juggnaut coming right up behind and alongside trans rights, holding on to that in the same way the T holds on to the LGB. Exactly the same mechanisms used from the same instruction book. And it needs to be robustly challenged.

Good post, FloralBunting. It’s all little steps.

@Caroncanta I think that was the basis for the comments I read about blasphemy laws!

It becomes bigger and more terrifying the more you think of it!

1984 was a fucking novel ffs!

This is the dark side of 'nudge theory' that Cameron was so keen on. The argument was that advertisers etc were already using the technique so why shouldn't governments use it for the public good.

'There is a tyranny in the womb of every Utopia.”
~ Bertrand DeJouvenel

@FloralBunting

You know, I respect the desire of Scottish nationalists for their independence. I'm not Scottish so it's none of my business, so I have no opinion either way.

But I can't respect the desire to become to cradle of a new totalitarianism, with children shopping parents, and friends shopping friends to the authorities for wrong opinions.

There is something interesting going on with this. Scotland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand.

I'm not sure what it is, but I think there is a link. It's like in these places people (liberals, or progressives, anyway) don't think about the implications of the ideas themselves. Even a little big. It's all about the stand against colonialism or oppression or something.

Locally it reminds me a lot of the way the progressive press treats First Nations issues. There is a very narrow span of what is allowed to be said, thought, and reported. Differing opinions are quickly branded racist. There is no real, deep, rational look at what is being said, what it means, the history, what the outcomes might be long term. The old time a bit of news unexpectedly begins to make the narrative look questionable, it's dropped like a hot potato.

1984 was a fucking novel ffs!

Yep. It's utterly crazy. We've all been fighting the trans ideology to save women's rights and we (well me anyway) have failed to notice that this is the tip of the iceberg.

Sarah Phillimore just tweeted this, it's a comment from what looks like the Daily Mail. Could be someone taking the piss, but 😑

Seems far fetched because I don't think Alexa actually records? Not yet.

But I remember an Alexa demo on This Morning a while back and the person explaining it said, ''oh it doesn't start listening unless you say the name to activate it.'' Then they carried on talking for a while and Alexa piped up and answered something they were talking about, when they hadn't said 'Alexa', so it was listening without being prompted

I wouldn't put it past them to do this sort of thing with the technology we have. I mean, hackers can watch us (and listen) through cameras on Smart TV's, our laptops, phones, etc, I can imagine the wrong think, hurty feelz thought police having a field day with it.

I'm aware I sound like I have a tinfoil hat on, but then I never thought we'd ever be potentially facing punishment for what we say privately in our own homes, so 🤷‍♀️

Why aren’t people in Scotland up I arms about it? Or maybe they are.

They are.

Everyone from the Catholic Church to the Orange Order think part 2 of the proposed Bill is hugely problematic and if those two agree on something then the SG should probably have a bit of a rethink..to put it mildly.

Here's a good summery of some of the problems with the Bill as listed by the campaign group Free To Disagree

1. The term ‘abusive’ (rude and insulting) could create a low threshold for offending.

2. The term ‘hatred’ is subjective and hard to define in criminal legislation

3. Free speech provisions are alarmingly vague. They only permit ‘discussion and criticism’ to do with religion and sexual orientation. This is the language of academics, not ordinary people discussing issues they feel strongly about.

4. A trans free speech clause is conspicuously absent, despite the obvious need for one given the heated debate on trans issues in Scottish society.

5. Discussion about marriage is also excluded from the free speech protections, despite it being included in equivalent laws in Northern Ireland, England and Wales.

6. People could be prosecuted for remarks made in the privacy of their own homes because there is no ‘dwelling defence’, unlike the rest of the UK.

7. Actors and directors would commit an offence if a play includes ‘abusive’ language.

8. Vague provisions on ‘possessing inflammatory material’ would punish those who possess ‘abusive’ material “with a view to communicating the material to another person”. An inexhaustible number of books, religious texts, leaflets, posters, articles, social media posts, emails and text messages could be caught.

9. Publishers based in other parts of the UK whose material is read in Scotland could be investigated by Police Scotland.

10. Stirring up’ prosecutions in England, Wales and Northern Ireland must be approved by the Attorney General and the Director of Public Prosecutions respectively. But there is no requirement for the Lord Advocate to sign off on prosecutions in Scotland, under the draft offences.

The usual suspects pushed for "insulting" to be included when it came to the characteristic of transgender identity.

Oh and the Bill includes both “a non-binary person” and “a person who cross-dresses” under its “transgender identity” definition - so fetishists would have protection under this and anyone with anything to say about that would be fucked.

Part 2 of the Bill should be binned in its entirety. Passing it would potentially allow a situation where men with a trans identity would have control over the freedom of speech and expression of all women making it possibly a criminal offence for women to come together to discuss their bodies, their experiences, their lives, safeguarding issues and their rights, if this group happen to subjectively find those discussions “hateful” “offensive” or “insulting”.

This is why ForWomen.scot have been so worried about this proposed law. It is an absolute all out assault on freedom of speech.

I've recently joined the Free Speech Union, but really am not sure what else I can do from a campaigning POV. I am going to talk to my union but they seem to be fully on the woke train to wokesville and I don't know if it will do any good or make things worse.

I suppose I should write to my MP too.

Any other suggestions?

Jesus Terry that's terrifying!

Alexa???? Fucking hell!

And yes, as @terryleather posted... there is a lot of push back against this.... add your shoulder as and when you can!

Now it's hit the English parliament I will be!

That list really is terrifying, Christ!

Actors punished for acting? People punished for owning a book that someone might not like. What the actual fuck?