So, the sex "work" "debate"

[FizzyDizzy121]

Having looked through a lot of older threads here, I'm asking for some help.

Do you have a DP or family member that you fundamentally disagree with on a topic as black and white (to me) as sex "work"?

In my younger years, I was very much in favour of choice feminism, including in areas such as prostitution. I believed that the pushback was motivated by our issues around sex and that if a woman (usually) wants to run a business that way, supply and demand right? I did argue for better protections, H&S involvement etc.

Now, my whole approach changed a few years back. Buying consent makes me very, very uneasy and I would argue is a form of coercion/distress rather than freely given. Men (usually) who "visit" prostitutes are having sex with someone they KNOW wouldn't have sex with them if there wasnt money involved which is dodgy on so many grounds.
And all that is before we get to the amount of assaults, trafficking etc involved.

My DP is pretty left leaning (as am I) and views all work as unjust. Humans shouldn't have to be coerced to do labour in order to pay for essentials like shelter or food. And he sees sex "work" as within this bracket. Its exploitation but not any different than a retail worker for example. He says he'd be happy for his relative to be involved in sex "work", he argues the money changing hands is not buying the woman but the labour of the woman (I.e. the sex) for a set amount of time.

How do you respond to such thinking? Does it impact show you think of the other person?

Any thoughts/comments gratefully received

I was 17 when I started prostitution to pay for drugs and drug-related debts. Kicked out of my house for my borderline personality disorder related problems. Sectioned and spent a few weeks in a Priory hospital. Released into a YMCA. Had known dealer since 14 and he was 18, he dated my friend when she was 14. I had a crush on him, was sleeping with him by the time I was 16, but had sent pics to him before then. I was seeing CAMHS. I just wanted more drugs than I could afford and he had the "solution" because I "love drugs and love sex so?". I got driven to a house full of men one night when I was on ketamine, given some cocaine and alcohol, and left there. And I went through with it because I didn't want to let anyone down and I knew I needed more drugs/money. Some of the men had children and girlfriend's. When they drove me back to hostel, there was a kid's car seat in the back.

"It's the idea that that is what women are 'for'" This. It doesn't merely harm the participants, it harms all of humanity.

(I'm hazy on the detail, but there was apparently a t.v. programme featuring a married couple who film their own activity and broadcast it on a subscription service. Peeping Tom is not everyone's idea of spectator sport, but presumably, and one hopes, it is not depicting anything which would be power imbalance in their marriage, and of course not involving strangers, so one would hope it would be less unhealthy than other porn.)

The remarkable statement that the moment a prostitute stops her usual method of earning, her child becomes "starving, destitute and homeless" (while every other woman giving up every other type of work merely becomes eligible for benefits, designed, however imperfectly, to prevent any such thing) would have some credence if the prostitutes are the only women with expensive drug or gambling habits. Possibly there might be a higher incidence, but no direct correlation.

t

I’ve never heard of anyone struggling on benefits to the point where they feel the need to sell their body
I was one of those people on benefits and actually sold my body to feed my kids.
It's a very long time ago and I thank christ I didnt have to do it for long. But I'm one of those never heard of people.
What's most maddening about it now is that it still happens. So all that fucking I had to do (btw it's because the government forgot to pay me for three weeks) was completely in vain because women (rarely men) still have to do it to get by. I stupidly thought I was an outlier.
I also thought that because I had been groomed by a gang and had sex for them it wouldn't effect me.
It does.

Of course there are women on benefits turning to prostitution. Do you live in a vacuum?

This failure to understand fundamentally what consent is, is basically why rape is legal in this country. It is disgusting.

I wouldn't ever go out with any man who knowingly used another woman for his own sexual needs. Prostitutes don't fall in your lap, you have to actively find one. Then you actively assume rights to penetrate her knowing that she wouldn't want it in any circumstances other than money. How vile.

How vile.

How true. Excellent post.

Gurufloof

Thank you for sharing.

I have also lived for my Year 11 & 12 being hand to mouth on benefits and a combo of cash in hand and other casual jobs that didn’t effect my benefits as they were intermittent and low pay. I did catch myself nearly applying for periphery industry roles (topless wait staff, brothel receptionist) just to make enough to cover food as I regularly had little to eat. I think it is a hard decision to make and rarely clear cut.

Ketrina

A harrowing experience. That time must have been very scary for you.

FizzyDizzy121 - OP wrote - "He says he'd be happy for his relative to be involved in sex "work", he argues the money changing hands is not buying the woman but the labour of the woman (I.e. the sex) for a set amount of time."

ThinEndOfTheWedge wrote - "not sure if you have any girls in your family - but if sex work is work - would your DH be happy for DDs / nieces etc - if needing benefits when they grow up - having benefits docked if they refuse to give a strange bloke a blow job as a way of earning money?"

Never mind what the man thinks a female relative should do. I think the man should be asked if he would become a prostitute.

He'd probably respond by saying that he's not gay, but that would be no excuse because his own sexuality is irrelevant. If "it's only a job" rather than an affirmation of his identity, then he should be expected to cope with putting his sexuality aside "for a set amount of time" and he should be able to regain his sense of self, at least until the next customer appears. I'd also expect him to say that he couldn't be a prostitute because there would not be enough customers for men like him. That would not be a convincing reason why he could not be a prostitute, it is only a reason for why he may never be a rich prostitute.

Of course, a subtext of this is that many men claim that prostitution is only work, but what they really mean is that prostitution is only women's work.

What kind of person wants to have sex with someone who doesn't want to?

That is the question surely.

@Winesalot

And at least one person on this thread shared their experience.

Ok. This is not an argument here. I said I’ve never heard of it and another poster shared her story and said she too said the same as me before doing selling her body.

Thanks for the info I will look it up.

@Gurufloof

I’ve never heard of anyone struggling on benefits to the point where they feel the need to sell their body I was one of those people on benefits and actually sold my body to feed my kids. It's a very long time ago and I thank christ I didnt have to do it for long. But I'm one of those never heard of people. What's most maddening about it now is that it still happens. So all that fucking I had to do (btw it's because the government forgot to pay me for three weeks) was completely in vain because women (rarely men) still have to do it to get by. I stupidly thought I was an outlier. I also thought that because I had been groomed by a gang and had sex for them it wouldn't effect me. It does.

At the time when you needed money was your choice of resorting to sex work because of a deeper issue? Such as NO family support or friends that could borrow you some money? Or help out with childcare?

@Ketrina

I was 17 when I started prostitution to pay for drugs and drug-related debts. Kicked out of my house for my borderline personality disorder related problems. Sectioned and spent a few weeks in a Priory hospital. Released into a YMCA. Had known dealer since 14 and he was 18, he dated my friend when she was 14. I had a crush on him, was sleeping with him by the time I was 16, but had sent pics to him before then. I was seeing CAMHS. I just wanted more drugs than I could afford and he had the "solution" because I "love drugs and love sex so?". I got driven to a house full of men one night when I was on ketamine, given some cocaine and alcohol, and left there. And I went through with it because I didn't want to let anyone down and I knew I needed more drugs/money. Some of the men had children and girlfriend's. When they drove me back to hostel, there was a kid's car seat in the back.

This is what I tried to suggest earlier to another poster. Becoming a prostitute because your skint is not the norm. It clearly starts from issues like you have explained and combined issues for needing to do it because you have a drug habit that you need to pay for.

Of course, a subtext of this is that many men claim that prostitution is only work, but what they really mean is that prostitution is only women's work

This sums it up perfectly.

Who cares if it’s “work” or not? Whether something is categorised as “work” is not relevant to whether it’s safe or morally acceptable.

Child Labour is “work” but it’s not ok. Conscription is “work” but it’s not ok. (BTW I’m not sure your DH understands what conscription is).

The better question is why does your DH think facilitating men to have sex with women who are not truly consenting ok?

@Gurufloof

I’ve never heard of anyone struggling on benefits to the point where they feel the need to sell their body I was one of those people on benefits and actually sold my body to feed my kids. It's a very long time ago and I thank christ I didnt have to do it for long. But I'm one of those never heard of people. What's most maddening about it now is that it still happens. So all that fucking I had to do (btw it's because the government forgot to pay me for three weeks) was completely in vain because women (rarely men) still have to do it to get by. I stupidly thought I was an outlier. I also thought that because I had been groomed by a gang and had sex for them it wouldn't effect me. It does.

What a horrifying thing to go through.

I don't think it's a black and white issue.

I don't believe that sex work is exactly the same as any type of work. However, I'm aware that no society has managed to eliminate prostitution, and that attempts to do so have usually made life more difficult for the prostitutes (yes, including the "Nordic model"). So I would think in terms of decriminalisation, harm reduction, cracking down on trafficking and providing alternatives to those who want out.

It's a bit like the drug war. We can keep drugs illegal because of the harm they do, or we can face up to the fact that people will take drugs regardless and look at reducing that harm e.g. decriminalisation, regulation similar to alcohol, drug treatment programs, distinguishing between hard and soft drugs.

"Just say no" is a nice catchphrase but it has never yet achieved results.

@PegasusReturns

Who cares if it’s “work” or not? Whether something is categorised as “work” is not relevant to whether it’s safe or morally acceptable.

Child Labour is “work” but it’s not ok. Conscription is “work” but it’s not ok. (BTW I’m not sure your DH understands what conscription is).

The better question is why does your DH think facilitating men to have sex with women who are not truly consenting ok?

It matters as to whether prostitution is categorised as "work" because if it is "work" it legitimises it and makes it a norm.

His argument is that having sex for money is no different than say, lifting bags of cement around for money

Except sex without consent is rape, legally and socially condemned. Because we recognise the moral wrong and social harm of rape.

Lugging bags of cement around without consent is unpleasant but it's not rape

Of course, a subtext of this is that many men claim that prostitution is only work, but what they really mean is that prostitution is onlywomen'swork
And this is why it will stay in the shadows, because if it became "work" then men too will have to do it to carry on claiming benefits. They could never advertise it for only women, that would be illegal.

At the time when you needed money was your choice of resorting to sex work because of a deeper issue? Such as NO family support or friends that could borrow you some money? Or help out with childcare
Not sure why this is relevant? But to answer anyway:- everyone I knew at that time was in a similar position of being grindingly skint, more than one went the prostitution route. Those that did kept it quiet.
How would borrowing money have helped? I could never have paid it back. I didnt have a proper job more the black market kind of job, working in bars, cleaning type of work. It was badly paid, shit hours etc etc. We all in the area shared any childcare and cash jobs. So if someone had a weeks night cleaning, the rest would do the childcare, and it worked out about fair in the end. Still I could not actually survive on £44 a week benefits. It wasn't the benefits, it was when your fridge broke or a big unexpected bill came in. It was barely exisiting and fucking miserable.

@Gurufloof

And there is REALITY

[quote chickenyhead]@Gurufloof

And there is REALITY[/quote]
Again Thank you gurufloof

Why did they start in the first place? That’s what I was getting at! I by no means would encourage anybody and I certainly wouldn’t be happy if it was my friend or family member. Lots of people are facing difficult times in the pandemic... would that mean they turn to sex work?

As a teenager, who was living independently from parents who could not have afforded to support me anyway, I seriously considered roles that while not prostitution but roles within the industry that were exploitive. Why? I was on benefits studying year 11 and 12 and already juggling jobs to subsidise the benefits (up to the allowable amount). Being 18, earning that amount of money would have been a dream.

Prostitution or destitution isn't really a choice is if.

@Ketrina

I was 17 when I started prostitution to pay for drugs and drug-related debts. Kicked out of my house for my borderline personality disorder related problems. Sectioned and spent a few weeks in a Priory hospital. Released into a YMCA. Had known dealer since 14 and he was 18, he dated my friend when she was 14. I had a crush on him, was sleeping with him by the time I was 16, but had sent pics to him before then. I was seeing CAMHS. I just wanted more drugs than I could afford and he had the "solution" because I "love drugs and love sex so?". I got driven to a house full of men one night when I was on ketamine, given some cocaine and alcohol, and left there. And I went through with it because I didn't want to let anyone down and I knew I needed more drugs/money. Some of the men had children and girlfriend's. When they drove me back to hostel, there was a kid's car seat in the back.

Ketrina

I'm so sorry to read this and for the pain you have experienced. I really hope you are getting better and recovering?

Gurufloof & Ketrina