So, the sex "work" "debate"

[FizzyDizzy121]

Having looked through a lot of older threads here, I'm asking for some help.

Do you have a DP or family member that you fundamentally disagree with on a topic as black and white (to me) as sex "work"?

In my younger years, I was very much in favour of choice feminism, including in areas such as prostitution. I believed that the pushback was motivated by our issues around sex and that if a woman (usually) wants to run a business that way, supply and demand right? I did argue for better protections, H&S involvement etc.

Now, my whole approach changed a few years back. Buying consent makes me very, very uneasy and I would argue is a form of coercion/distress rather than freely given. Men (usually) who "visit" prostitutes are having sex with someone they KNOW wouldn't have sex with them if there wasnt money involved which is dodgy on so many grounds.
And all that is before we get to the amount of assaults, trafficking etc involved.

My DP is pretty left leaning (as am I) and views all work as unjust. Humans shouldn't have to be coerced to do labour in order to pay for essentials like shelter or food. And he sees sex "work" as within this bracket. Its exploitation but not any different than a retail worker for example. He says he'd be happy for his relative to be involved in sex "work", he argues the money changing hands is not buying the woman but the labour of the woman (I.e. the sex) for a set amount of time.

How do you respond to such thinking? Does it impact show you think of the other person?

Any thoughts/comments gratefully received

[quote chickenyhead]@FizzyDizzy121

But clearly you don't want to have sex with everyone who would choose to have sex with you.

Sex workers don't get to choose without consequence, hence it isnt true consent.[/quote]
They do want to have sex with them as they consider the reward (money) to be a fair transaction.

The women use the men just as much as the men use the women.

@Louiselhrau

Yes I am sure those awful trafficked sex workers are using men.

What tosh.

People who claim to be left leaning also seem to have previous little idea of how capitalism works, or the theory of commodification (being able to critique one's opponents being pretty fundamental I would have thought, and something Marx and Engels, whatever the faults in their own theories, were very good at).

For every "artisanal, hand crafted loaf" sold in a posh deli in an upper middle class area, Tesco's, Lidl and Aldi are shifting tens of thousands of cheap sliced packing foam made using the Chorley Wood process. Because that's how capitalism works. It needs inequality, but however much you exploit the poor, they still need to be fed (annoying as this no doubt is to some on the right).

If you buy into the "sex work is work" nonsense, why on earth would you think this was the one bit of capitalism that was miraculously exempt from commodification? For every £200 an hour high class independent "escort" of course you're going to have scores of desperate addicts on their knees in Holbeck giving blow jobs for a fiver. Because that's the nature of capitalism.

So congratulations, Mr Left-leaning-but-not-very-bright: by buying into the "sex work is work" crapola, you've just done one of the very dirtiest of capitalism's dirty work for it.

The women use the men just as much as the men use the women.

I have worked with a lot of women and children in prostitution and this has not been my experience.

The woman and children have gained money for food, drugs and other people. They have often gained physical and mental injuries alongside the money.

The blokes are the people with the power in this transaction and I don't believe that PTSD is a common side effect of the interaction for them.

This isn't a meeting of equals.

Thanks everyone - a lot of people are echoing my thoughts and beliefs on this topic.

Just to clarify, he thinks sex work is exploitative and therefore wrong. But he sees this in the same category as a person who hated working in Construction having to lug cement around. In both scenarios there is exploitation and he sees this as fundamentally the same thing.

The issue around harm both physical and mental during sex work was raised. He pointed me to the number injuries and fatalities in the Construction sector. Of course, this is lower than the amount I imagine there are in the sex "industry" and he accepts that more harm is caused within prostitution. He argues that making sex work legal would allow for better monitoring, regulation and removal of pimps etc and other industries would have similar rates of crime and harm if they were also operating largely in the dark.

The bit I keep coming back to is the argument around choice. Can people freely choose to be exploited? Would I feel differently if it wasnt a marginalised group that was in the highest demand to deliver these "services"? If the "customer" group wasnt the sex that causes the most abuse on women? I dont know.

I'm not going to get into some of the stereotypes- I disagree with his position on this issue fundamentally and this thread was to see how other people would respond, whether anyone else has a similar disagreement of such epic proportions with their OH and some advice of handling it, not whether he's white or had a beard etc.

I really appreciate everyone's thoughts so far - thank you.

Can people freely choose to be exploited?

No.
That is why we restrict the number of hours people can work, the wage they can receive while working, the age at which they can start working etc. why selling body parts is illegal and commercial surrogacy is banned in the UK.

Are you sure your bloke is left wing, he sounds more like an unrestrained capitalist.

I have just watched the film trafficked. I am quite traumatised to be honest. Maybe you should get him to watch it and let's see if he changes his mind

Are there high number of people who have worked in the construction industry who have PTSD?

If the construction worker had to suck off his boss for money he'd be closer to a working analogy. I can't think of a labouring job where you have to take another human inside you. In fact, many jobs prohibit you from doing that in the workplace.

Good point,if you are already miserable in your office job won't make any difference at all if you have to give your prat of a boss a bj at lunchtime because it is all just unpleasant work. ( and in an office you will be dry, in the light and reasonably safe)

If the construction worker had to suck off his boss for money he'd be closer to a working analogy. I can't think of a labouring job where you have to take another human inside you. In fact, many jobs prohibit you from doing that in the workplace.

I have a brother who has had to give up work after 30 plus years on building sites. He's worn out and it's taken a big toll on his body but he's missing the mates, the laughs, the tea breaks, the pub after work and the pride in building something that lasts. He's not had to spit someone's bodily fluids out of his mouth on a daily basis.

What a male perspective.

Gawd there’s the 2 of you, your partner and you having this very civilised talk about something neither off you will ever have to do

So civilised the two off yet so chilling

No empathy no nothing.

You OP don’t respond to any posts on the woman and children being trafficked

Yuck yuck to you and your partner

It’s like you are trawling on here for some reason 🤷‍♀️

Its something I once considered when I was younger and desperate - my ex had just lost their job, I wasn't earning much, and we were about to become homeless. My rationalisation was that I'd been sexually abused as a kid, so in theory my being able to just "switch off" would make it a bit less unbearable.

I am so glad that a friend lent us money, and I didn't have to think about it again.

Its something I once considered when I was younger and desperate - my ex had just lost their job, I wasn't earning much, and we were about to become homeless. My rationalisation was that I'd been sexually abused as a kid, so in theory my being able to just "switch off" would make it a bit less unbearable.

I am so glad that a friend lent us money, and I didn't have to think about it again.

I'm always leery of men who are enthusiastically pro-sex work.

@FizzyDizzy121

His argument is that having sex for money is no different than say, lifting bags of cement around for money.

I think he’s missing the point. Lifting bags of cement all day is not something that has the capacity to give you amazing intimate closeness, it’s not something that has the potential to emotionally link you to another being for good or for bad.

So the more a woman does it it leaves her at best feeling nothing towards sex or at worst - hating sex/intimacy. It is a job that has the capacity to destroy so much in a woman’s life, and not because of stigma. But because it removes the room for sex and intimacy and all of that in her life. There is so much more at stake. It’s not like for like with lifting cement bags

@littlbrowndog - yes, we did have a conversation about it. We also discuss religion, politics, philosophy, crime and the law. I hope to not have any experience of crime either but I'd still discuss it because that's how we learn

I specifically mentioned the horrendous practice of trafficking in my first post and nowhere have I said I agree with him. In fact, I've repeatedly asked for advice on how to progress when your DP has opposing views to you on a fundamental topic.

Clearly, this thread has ran its course if I'm being accused of being "chilling" and "lacking empathy" for trying to gain an independent perspective.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and advice - I greatly appreciate your time.

Fizzy in your original op you mentioned it once in a sentence at the end of a paragraph which came across as well not so important

Can you move past a man who thinks that women and girls are commodities that’s your choice and who thinks that his mum and his nieces could do various sex acts with strange men for money

That’s your choice

Fizzy in your original op you mentioned it once in a sentence at the end of a paragraph which came across as well not so important

Can you move past a man who thinks that women and girls are commodities that’s your choice and who thinks that his mum and his nieces could do various sex acts with strange men for money

That’s your choice

Mumsnet playing up so double post sorry