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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

So, the sex "work" "debate"

675 replies

FizzyDizzy121 · 03/11/2020 11:12

Having looked through a lot of older threads here, I'm asking for some help.

Do you have a DP or family member that you fundamentally disagree with on a topic as black and white (to me) as sex "work"?

In my younger years, I was very much in favour of choice feminism, including in areas such as prostitution. I believed that the pushback was motivated by our issues around sex and that if a woman (usually) wants to run a business that way, supply and demand right? I did argue for better protections, H&S involvement etc.

Now, my whole approach changed a few years back. Buying consent makes me very, very uneasy and I would argue is a form of coercion/distress rather than freely given. Men (usually) who "visit" prostitutes are having sex with someone they KNOW wouldn't have sex with them if there wasnt money involved which is dodgy on so many grounds.
And all that is before we get to the amount of assaults, trafficking etc involved.

My DP is pretty left leaning (as am I) and views all work as unjust. Humans shouldn't have to be coerced to do labour in order to pay for essentials like shelter or food. And he sees sex "work" as within this bracket. Its exploitation but not any different than a retail worker for example. He says he'd be happy for his relative to be involved in sex "work", he argues the money changing hands is not buying the woman but the labour of the woman (I.e. the sex) for a set amount of time.

How do you respond to such thinking? Does it impact show you think of the other person?

Any thoughts/comments gratefully received

OP posts:
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chickenyhead · 05/11/2020 00:09

I came back.

OP if that mirrors your husband's actual opinion, you have my sympathy and this debate is the least of your problems.

Isnt it telling that both opinions about consent are from men. Who clearly have absolutely no idea what it means. My 11 year old son is more informed.

Who would willingly use a desperate womans body if they fancied. Yuck. Vile.

quixote9 · 05/11/2020 00:10

There's doing tedious work that needs to be done (cleaning out septic tanks? setting up audiovisual equipment for bloviating politicians?) and then there's humiliation.

In "ordinary" jobs, the kind advertised at a job centre, humiliation isn't (supposed to be) the point. Research into the motivations of punters (who could, after all, much more easily and cheaply jerk off if it was about "sexual needs") mostly shows they're paying to feel dominance, to feel they can put her down and she can't do anything about it. The domination, not the sex, is the point.

The best response I've seen to the idea that sex work is just work, like, say, house cleaning, came from a sex worker. "Sure, if you had to clean the whole house with your tongue."
Being paid to be humiliated is in a

DidoLamenting · 05/11/2020 00:11

chickenyhead

I'm glad you came back. You made some very good points about consent.

StamfordHill · 05/11/2020 00:15

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

DidoLamenting · 05/11/2020 00:41

@StamfordHill

In "ordinary" jobs, the kind advertised at a job centre, humiliation isn't (supposed to be) the point....The domination, not the sex, is the point.

Domination isn't synonymous with humiliation. Being serviced is a good feeling in itself - much of the draw of the top end hospitality sector is the grand feeling of being special and waited on.

Are you just trying to wind people up? I've stayed at hotels like The Ritz and The Adlon. I enjoy staying in luxury hotels because they are beautiful and comfortable and the food and drink will be excellent. I don't however consider that I'm special or get a kick out of being waited on.

And how that luxury hotel experience can be compared with wanking into a stranger's body is beyond me.

thanksgivingchi · 05/11/2020 01:14

Let's take a job with an ick factor - nursing
I worked as a support worker carrying out personal care tasks.
It bears no relation to prostitution on any level.
I felt a sense of satisfaction with my job, it was worthwhile helping people to live more independent lives in the community.
Acting as a wank sock for passing stray blokes really wouldn't have given me the same feeling.
Society needs people to provide care for others, men don't need to use women's bodies for their own sexual gratification.
The level of entitlement in that idea is quite something.

Stellwagen · 05/11/2020 02:01

@DidoLamenting

So say I did fancy what they were offering, the choice is now do I pay £20 for something I enjoy, and we're both better off. Or do I take the moral high ground and two poor crackheads spend the night on the freezing cold street

I'm trying and failing to understand how sex with someone who doesn't actually want to have sex with you, and who looks like a crackhead, outdoors in winter can be enjoyable.

The moral highground if you can afford £20, would have been to give them £20. They would be better off by £20 without having to allow a complete stranger to wank off inside them.

Yes, next time just give them some money.
Blueberries0112 · 05/11/2020 02:06

@ThinEndOfTheWedge

I think prostitution is exploitation and paid rape.

I don’t know any girl who grow up wishing to be prostitutes. If ‘sex work’ was so great - women who weren’t destitute, pimped, addicts, sex trafficked etc... would do it.

Also - not sure if you have any girls in your family - but if sex work is work - would your DH be happy for DDs / nieces etc - if needing benefits when they grow up - having benefits docked if they refuse to give a strange bloke a blow job as a way of earning money?

A woman’s body is not a place of work.

I agree with this, I doubt these women would do this for free. They are forced to do it for survival.
NiceGerbil · 05/11/2020 03:37

Not fully caught up sorry.

I am at a loss as to how anyone can say that fucking is the same as selling envelopes, laying a roof, or even working in a mine.

The people who claim this tend to be straight men who enjoy winding women up (I've met them plenty of times). Hello. I'm a man! You're a woman. Let's have a nice chat about prostitution at work at the coffee machine. I read an article in the newspaper! As a woman. What do you think?

Oh hello man! You're twice my size and we're at the coffee machine at work and you want to have a nice chat about this? About paying women to stick a cock in a hole or 3 for cash? Wow that sounds like a super comfy conversation... Gosh I can't wait to get stuck in (pun intended :D)

Actually I'm not at a loss at all.

For religious/ traditional/ etc men it's basic old school virgin/ whore. Simple. Some women and girls are whore status. Which ones are decided by the men and dependent on the predominant religion/ social ideas at the time. In some countries you may achieve that status by dint of being raped, dressing slightly out of what is acceptable, being independent, having casual sex... Whatever. Varies enormously. But it's the men who decide and society that follows. Many women

chickenyhead · 05/11/2020 03:50

Yes, exactly. StamfordHill's scenario of a woman approaching him and offering a large sum of money to handle his genitals, bears absolutely no comparison to prostitution.

An actual comparison might be StamfordHill having insufficient money to feed his kids, or pay his bills and standing in the cold hoping that some dirty man will come and offer him £20 to sodomise him behind the bushes. Then maybe he could consider whether that is consent.

NiceGerbil · 05/11/2020 04:17

Iirc Stamford has a view that all sex outside marriage is immoral due to religious beliefs.

I may be misremembering so it would be good to get some confirmation from Stamford.

As those types of belief tend to have quite a different starting point, and it would be a shame to get at cross purposes.

20mum · 05/11/2020 12:43

A credulous person might accept what any salesperson including a prostitute or street beggar claims to be true.

I looked on the official tables of benefits. Elsethread someone posted of a woman she knows who claims housing benefit and free school meals, legally, because the (£300 p.w. each ?) extra income she gets from ex. is called child maintenance. On the table of benefits, it showed she could have earned herself another income, also openly declared, of yet another £300, every penny of which would also be discounted, because she could state she needed to spend it on childcare, which offsets £300 of her earnings to zero to enable her to claim Housing Benefit. (I didn't look it up, but some areas of London have an astounding rent allowance.)

Maternity Allowance, maternity and paternity pay £151.20. (State Pension £80.45 ) Universal Credit £409.89 plus corona bonus (£20p.w?). £281.25 for a child, £1,108.04 for two.

Claimant and first spouse for polygamous marriage £265.20 plus £91.45 for additional spouse.

Being a polygamous spouse supported by the taxpayers' purse at £91.45 compares well with the £74.35 for standard unemployment pay out-with Universal Credit, and of course the older pensioners' £80.45. (over 80's get an extra 0.25p (!))

More recently retired get £175.20, but older ones even if street homeless and without a penny in savings can only get maximum pension credit to bring income up to £173.75. Modest life savings mean the same very elderly person would get only the £80.45 .

Savings is a huge illogical distortion problem within the benefit system. No distinction is made between having a house worth billions and no known savings, therefore eligible for full benefits, school meals and everything else, and having a pathetic amount of life savings, no private pension at all (normal for older people, especially women), and no roof except a private rental, with the entire rent, food and all bills coming from the basic State Pension of £80.45, and the remaining life savings.

Life savings mean no Housing Benefit, no Pension Credit, no eligibility for council housing even if street homeless, 90, and wheelchair using.
(The infamous Bournemouth Bus Shelter couple were one of the rare examples of a journalist having the plight of old people right in front of him, but that didn't change the system, nor did it change the age hate sneering in this country.)

A poster on this thread describes a clued-up supportive community where mums claim benefits plus earn in undeclared ways of various kinds, while using a babysitting network for one another's children. Of course, the extra income of being a 'single parent' is a disincentive to admit cohabitation. So is the inconvenient merging of two adults in the means assessment. If mum's partner is well supplied with money, mum can be assessed as penniless, provided dad officially doesn't spend more than so many nights at what other people might call the marital home.

Footballers who influence followers and governments might suggest two things: Dads, don't create single mothers: Governments, don't incentivise it.

Footballers anxious for justice and worried about real hunger might put the attention on the weirdness of age hate and savings punishment and the fact it is ordinary rule-abiding people in old age who are truly desperate and failed by every official system, every journalist and every popular clamour for attention.

Winesalot · 05/11/2020 13:02

Perhaps this new thread may be of interest.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4070737-Woman-s-hour-transcript-I-Julie-Bindel

Julie Bindel has been very active in working for the protection of woman. Maybe Julie's articles may be a useful resource for anyone looking into the motivations of sex work and the inherent harm.

ApplePlumPie · 05/11/2020 13:06

An actual comparison might be StamfordHill having insufficient money to feed his kids, or pay his bills and standing in the cold hoping that some dirty man will come and offer him £20 to sodomise him behind the bushes. Then maybe he could consider whether that is consent

Much better comparison. And I will put money on the answer being a big fat no.

Funny how these people comparing prostitution to an ordinary job would never actually do it themselves, absolute hypocrites. If you wouldn’t let strangers penetrate your mouth/anus/vagina in exchange for money then you have no place suggesting anyone else should either.

Meuniere · 05/11/2020 14:36

@StamfordHill, I think your example with nursing doesnt hold.
I am doing a similar job and no I am not grossed out by cleaning poo and other bodily function. I don't need to be paid to that job. I do it because of other factors, mainly wanting to help people feel better. so it's thr caring side that comes first and foremost.

The payment is not the reason why I chose that job.

fwiw, I dont think that the money is the main reason to chose a certain job for many people. Yes sometimes it can be that (It's either cleaning loos or not eating). But when it comes choosing a career (as in a job you think you will enjoy), money is far form been the only reason in the choice. Otherwise we would all the bankers and no one wouod become a nurse for example.

Meuniere · 05/11/2020 14:42

Domination isn't synonymous with humiliation. Being serviced is a good feeling in itself - much of the draw of the top end hospitality sector is the grand feeling of being special and waited on.

Are you really comparing having sex with a stranger for money (with all the risks involved, of emotional and physical pain, the non respect of boundarioes etc...) with been waited on at the Ritz?!? Confused

Blueberries0112 · 05/11/2020 15:12

I was certified nurse aide, I have seen all sort of bodies as part of my job is the bath them and cloth them. It's not the same.

DidoLamenting · 05/11/2020 15:30

@Meuniere

Domination isn't synonymous with humiliation. Being serviced is a good feeling in itself - much of the draw of the top end hospitality sector is the grand feeling of being special and waited on.

Are you really comparing having sex with a stranger for money (with all the risks involved, of emotional and physical pain, the non respect of boundarioes etc...) with been waited on at the Ritz?!? Confused

It's bizarre isn't it? Also the assumption that enjoying being in a luxury hotel comes with a sense of domination is itself bizarre.

I've stayed in a fair few top end hotels- and that's never occurred to me anymore than I would expect the employees there to be polite and helpful- as you would in any service industry situation.

PhilSwagielka · 05/11/2020 15:30

@HecatesCats

Before wokedom took over researchgate wasn't scared to say that prostitution & poverty go hand in hand:

Street prostitution is intrinsically related to poverty

[[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232934362]]WomenninStreettProstitutionTheeResultoffPovertyanddtheBrunttof_Inequity

What do you mean, before wokedom took over? Did it become unacceptable to say that many women go into prostitution as a means of survival?
Gurufloof · 05/11/2020 15:42

A poster on this thread describes a clued-up supportive community where mums claim benefits plus earn in undeclared ways of various kinds, while using a babysitting network for one another's children

That was me I think. Would like to point out it was a long time ago, eons it feels like.
I believe to some extent it still goes on but cash jobs are like hens teeth now.
Also for a while I unofficially job shared with a friend. She went one week, me the next. Official job that was.
And even did child minding unofficially for peanuts, before the benefits system changed and you had to have a registered childminder.

And of course the prostitution for a few weeks when everything else wasnt an option.
I had high hopes that this would no longer be an issue for women, but sadly nothing seems to have changed.

Escapeplanning · 05/11/2020 17:01

Are you really comparing having sex with a stranger for money (with all the risks involved, of emotional and physical pain, the non respect of boundarioes etc...) with been waited on at the Ritz?!? confused

Of course he is. Men have so called "titty bars" set up to combine the two activities conveniently for them.

blindinglyobviouslight · 05/11/2020 17:53

So say I did fancy what they were offering, the choice is now do I pay £20 for something I enjoy, and we're both better off. Or do I take the moral high ground and two poor crackheads spend the night on the freezing cold street

OMG - this is one of the most disgusting things I have ever heard - trying to present using a woman's body - a woman who you know does not want to have sex with you - for personal gratification as a charitable act of a kind heart.

Blueberries0112 · 05/11/2020 17:57

Or you can donate $20

Blueberries0112 · 05/11/2020 17:58

Sorry I can't find the British money sign on my phone

chickenyhead · 05/11/2020 18:06

@blindinglyobviouslight

I'm glad it wasn't just me, the wording made me a little sick.