School Transgender policies

[Purpler5]

Has anyone looked at any school transgender policies?

I just found one that defined sex as

“the way a person’s body appears, sometimes wrongly, to indicate their gender”.

I’m new to these discussions but surely this definition is.... I can’t even think of the word....Weird? Unnecessarily complicated?

Honestly, who comes up with this stuff?!

I'm not sure of the etymology of that phrase MiladyRenata, but I assume it's to do with the stereotypical idea of men being strong and brave. Gender stereotyping is something which feminists fight against, unlike the trans lobby which likes to reinforce it.

In an effort to get this thread back on track, I did a web search for the phrase “the way a person’s body appears, sometimes wrongly, to indicate their gender” and one of the top hits was this thread from 2017 about guidance from an NHS organisation in Scotland.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3101028-To-think-this-breath-takingly-ill-thought-out-regressive-sexist-nonsense-and-is-a-real-danger-to-children-with-special-needs

It was also in this thread from 2018, where it was quoted from the Cornwall guidance for schools (which I think is one of the council's which has refused to withdraw its trans guidance).

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3344556-Let-s-talk-about-how-safeguarding-is-being-disregarded?login=complete

It also appears in a disturbing number of school transgender policies.

The definition of gender in these policies is "the way that a person feels about themselves in relation to their physical and mental self; the basis of their identifying as male, or female, or neither, or either, both." Which doesn't make much sense either.

All the schools in Cornwall use a company called Jigsaw. Lots of other counties use it too. At Primary level there is one lesson on Transgenderism, you can download lesson outlines. You can spot the deliberate mistake on this one which may or may not show where the focus lies. Jigsaw have a big Twitter presence if anyone wants to look them up .

MiladyRenata, I'd recommend reading The Gendered Brain by Gina Rippon. I actually find it quite insulting now when people talk about "female brains". The only thing that makes my brain female is the fact that it is comprised of XX chromosomes and part of a female body.

Can we start by, maybe, not deciding that 50% of our kids must be:
Forced to play contact sports
Made to wear their hair short
Made to wear ties
Called by their surnames instead of their first names
Beaten up by the lads from the local comprehensive because they happen to be wearing the uniform of the local grammar school.
Generally bullied all the time.
because of their chromosomes? Just a thought.

I think you'll find that that everyone on this board agrees that gendered stereotypes have a negative effect on men and boys too. Honestly though, do you think it's appropriate to come on a feminist board and suggest that we start with sorting out the negative impacts of gender stereotypes on boys? You know that feminism is about centring women and girls right?

Thanks for your further research @OldCrone. That was going to be my next step!

This is all very disturbing to me and I agree with PP comparing to flat earthers etc.

Next step : what can we do about it? I guess report these policies and documents to SSA?

[quote MiladyRenata]@Oldcrone

Very good question (and one I have pondered for many years).

I think that gender is a bit like sexual orientation. It's set up a certain way in the brain, and happens to correlate with one's physical biology most, but not all, of the time.

So sometimes you get a mismatch, which we call "gender dysphoria". It's only a "disorder" if society expects XY people to be men and XX people to be women. Much like we used to think same sex attraction was a disorder but now, thankfully, we don't.

Hope that helps a bit.[/quote]
It makes just as much sense, in my personal opinion, if someone says they are a cat (or any other creature) in their brain, just with a different physical biology. If one theorizes that there can be a difference like that between your body and your brain, you cannot limit the possibilities. Darn society compelling cats with people bodies to conform to human rules. It would rather spice things up if you had the brain of a Tom cat and the body of a celibate monk. Or had a little clean in full view, sans culottes.

I think society, (certainly in religion) thought that same sex attraction went against their religious teaching. Thankfully we aren't compelled to believe, or compelled to pretend to believe, ideologies that we personally see as bullshit any more. Or weren't for a short period of time. Except for twitter, or the Lib Dems etc, etc, etc.

Can you be a person of any different type whatsoever in your brain and have a different body? If not, why not? What about a disconnect with parts of your body. Can you have a different left side to the rest of your brain and body? I won't go into the reproductive bits!

Personally, I don''t find that notion credible. I think it is saying you are born in the wrong body. I shall now have a coffee with the other cats people in my household

Goodness me, another merail! Who would ever have expected that. Advanced search might be helpful if anyone's tempted to get distracted from the OP's question onto another topic introduced a few posts in.

It's ok milady has already explained on a different thread that (from memory) women and girls are passive and focus on looking ornamental so we don't need to go over it all again. Oh and add, no normal woman wants to play contact sports. The ones that do obviously have incorrect brains.

So we can get back to the topic.

The definition of sex as pointing out gender is arse about face. Do the people who wrote it understand that? Unlikely, as they presumably have similarly bizarre definitions of both arse and face

That mistake is very revealing in the Jigsaw resource!

I'm a middle school teacher and what I'd say in a biology lesson is that human bodies have two sexes and I'd mention DSD because 1) students are often curious about outliers whatever the topic, and 2) it inoculates from the unscientific stuff some gender ideologists imagine is a gotcha.

I usually don't have the time to teach gender in biology so I say that some people feel like they should have been the opposite sex but if they haven't had surgery or whatnot they can still be fertile which is why students might see the headlines about men giving birth.

In my capacity as a homeroom teacher, I say that gender is the expectations that a particular society has for each sex and those expectations vary through cultures and history. Unpack some stereotypes. Unpack the harm done by and benefit of gender roles, expression etc. We might even talk about toxic masculinity and mean girls. Depends on the group.

In a lesson about transgender people: Some people feel more comfortable in the other gender role, some people feel like they received the socialisation meant for the other sex, some people believe they literally are the other gender. Then it's up to the students to sort through what they think.
Sometimes gender non conforming girls bring up stuff about scans for male and female brains, and ergo trans people have 'opposite brains', and as a science teacher I am delighted to discuss that with them as I think the conclusions have been massively overstated.

It's a fine line because teachers can't really say what we think and it's definitely not our role to give our students our own values. Whether I believe in gender ideology or not, it's not for me to say in a lesson. But where these resources have been going wrong, I think, is presenting gender ideology as a solid gold objective fact. In fact, as I think of arguments I have had with me, that is very familiar.

arguments with men*

Purpler back to your question. I started with checking the school equality policy because it was wrong. It opened up the conversation with the headmaster. I then had a series of meetings with him about this topic.

I got policies changed and the materials checked for nonsense.

You may also have had a letter back from school on the lessons on PHSE with a number on if they are using an outside resource to deliver which you can call and get a copy of the materials or talk through what's being delivered.

My specific concern was about the wrong body crap which thankfully wasn't in the lessons plans.

@MiladyRenata plenty of women play rugby. I think your stereotyping and lack of understanding about biology is as damaging as forcing boys to "man up"

No female brain has ever been discovered in a man's body its why brain scans and biopsies aren't part of the DX

Brains form front thensame cluster of cells that start multiplying at convention. X meet X or X meets XY cell devision starts and every cell is XX or XY.

Born in the wrong body is not true even mermaids says.

Good luck challenging op this stuff is bollocks and has no place in our schools

From the same

Conception

I'm.about to have a coffee.. clearly needed

Or X meets Y

I'll get ther in a minute.

Aaah bab

But trans isn't stereotypes
It isn't born in the wrong body
Isnt a mental disorder

And if there was actually a female brain in a mans body they'd biopsy it and problem solved.

If its all so obvious then why the need fir self ID ? You'd only need that of you cant actually prove anything surely?

There's an awful lot if what it isn't but we don't actually know what it is.

We get accused of erasing their existence but in fact its the likes of the organisations and the activists who have basically gone full circle with their definitions and explanations and have written the very people they claim to represent out of their existence. Not us.

Hopefully this new DofE regulation will go someway to be able to challenge these improbable ideological based lessons and stick to actual facts. Like sex is a biological fact that cannot be changed

Babdoc Why not join us instead, and free yourself to be you

Yep, many a man has stood in a skirt kilt and screamed 'freedom'. Might have a gander at 'Braveheart' this weekend.

Do they teach Scottish history in English schools? You could have pictures of men in kilts. Looking fine. Ok, Culloden is not Bannockburn and is tragic, but with the Jacobites you have Bonnie Prince Charlie in his kilt and wig.

www.jacobites.net/prince-charles-edward-stuart.html

That jigsaw deliberate mistake is hilarious!

Also where do they get the idea that hardly anyone is transgender? According to stonewall umbrella, pretty much everyone is transgender.

@Quisto

All the schools in Cornwall use a company called Jigsaw. Lots of other counties use it too. At Primary level there is one lesson on Transgenderism, you can download lesson outlines. You can spot the deliberate mistake on this one which may or may not show where the focus lies. Jigsaw have a big Twitter presence if anyone wants to look them up .

Yes, this lobby group seem to be a bit off-radar with people like SSA and TT but they are peddling gender ideology.

@tackiestones

That mistake is very revealing in the Jigsaw resource!

I'm a middle school teacher and what I'd say in a biology lesson is that human bodies have two sexes and I'd mention DSD because 1) students are often curious about outliers whatever the topic, and 2) it inoculates from the unscientific stuff some gender ideologists imagine is a gotcha.

I usually don't have the time to teach gender in biology so I say that some people feel like they should have been the opposite sex but if they haven't had surgery or whatnot they can still be fertile which is why students might see the headlines about men giving birth.

In my capacity as a homeroom teacher, I say that gender is the expectations that a particular society has for each sex and those expectations vary through cultures and history. Unpack some stereotypes. Unpack the harm done by and benefit of gender roles, expression etc. We might even talk about toxic masculinity and mean girls. Depends on the group.

In a lesson about transgender people: Some people feel more comfortable in the other gender role, some people feel like they received the socialisation meant for the other sex, some people believe they literally are the other gender. Then it's up to the students to sort through what they think.
Sometimes gender non conforming girls bring up stuff about scans for male and female brains, and ergo trans people have 'opposite brains', and as a science teacher I am delighted to discuss that with them as I think the conclusions have been massively overstated.

It's a fine line because teachers can't really say what we think and it's definitely not our role to give our students our own values. Whether I believe in gender ideology or not, it's not for me to say in a lesson. But where these resources have been going wrong, I think, is presenting gender ideology as a solid gold objective fact. In fact, as I think of arguments I have had with me, that is very familiar.

Excellent!

I am in the throes of challenging Camden's PSHE curriculum. I have had one brush off response after several to-and-fro letters. They justified some of the material by saying that it was widely used.🙄 that was about the extent of their argument, really 😂
So... going to write back in a few days with my serious hat on, apply the new government guidelines to what they have said, and ask fir an official review of PSHE and a remark that I will be carrying this forward as far as is required. Just so they know I won't be fobbed off!

HYPATIA123 SSA are aware of Jigsaw and have covered them in their new resource about external PSHE/RSE providers. Jigsaw are certainly concerning because they are so widely used by schools and they are clearly in breach of the new DfE guidance about not teaching children the ‘wrong body’ idea.

What is Camden’s PSHE curriculum like? All the best with your challenging of it.

safeschoolsallianceuk.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Parents-Guide-to-external-PSHE-RSE-providers.pdf#page28

@Quisto

All the schools in Cornwall use a company called Jigsaw. Lots of other counties use it too. At Primary level there is one lesson on Transgenderism, you can download lesson outlines. You can spot the deliberate mistake on this one which may or may not show where the focus lies. Jigsaw have a big Twitter presence if anyone wants to look them up .

My son had this lesson last year when he was in year 6. He was very confused afterwards about whether you could change sex or not and whether a girl could be inside a boy's body etc.

I wrote about it on this thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4036363-Does-anyone-have-access-to-Jigsaw-PSHE-lesson-plans?pg=2