A "discussion" I had with two gay friends about women's views on sex and trans women

[Oloves]

The first point I'd like to make is when I say "discussion", I mean two men talked about what women believe, think and feel in regards to sex and gender, and I couldn't even get a peep in, let alone share my view as the only woman in the room.

During this conversation, one of the most painful twists of logic I've ever heard came up. According to them, rape survivors in particular don't support TRAs because they've been so objectified that they've internalised it, reducing themselves down to nothing more than a sex object and sexual organs and making that their definition of being a woman, therefore excluding trans women. I was just sat there in shock. I couldn't even begin to unpick this at the time, I had to just sit there and listen.

The notion that the reason rape survivors may not want to be around trans women is because of their own internalised sexualisation and reduction to genitals is just so disconnected from reality and so insensitive I'm still shaken by it.

Another part that got to me was "which woman even cares about biological sex anyway?" and before I could even draw breath to answer, the other man in the room answered for me, exclaiming he had "no idea, it just seems really pointless and stupid". Before I could talk about millenia worth of collective trauma women have faced at the hands of male bodies due to their sex, before I could talk about how women are forced to confront the gory reality of their sex from such an early age in a way that is incomparable to anything a male body can experience, it was dismissed as pointless and stupid.

What got to me most was that I'm in my mid 20s and have very Liberal friends, same goes for the men I was talking to. It's incredibly rare to experience this sort of blatant dismissal of my opinions and experience with people in my age group and social circle. It really cemented the idea that women now play no part in the discussion of what being a woman is, and is almost entirely dictated by males and not something I, as a woman, even have an opinion on that's worth listening to.

I wish I would have said something and been more assertive, but I'm trying to get a small company off the ground with one of them and I just can't risk that falling through at the moment.

I'm sorry for the rant but I'm still reeling and didn't know where else I could talk about this.

This is the right place. And I understand why you don't want to have it out with someone you're establishing a professional relationship with.

And my reason, my need for single sex facilities, is not internalised objectification but a rational fear of men based on a wholly rational data analysis. Coupled, unfortunately, with physiological trauma reactions I am working on but have little control over.

Thank you.

And that's literally it. I'm so over this particular brand of expectation that a woman should override her boundaries, knowledge and instincts for the sake of male validation. We have infinite reasons between us why we need spaces without male bodies and its maddening that all these reasons are entirely dismissed.

Im so sorry that you're having to work through this, especially with attitudes changing as they are.

Stay strong, you will get there.

Take heart, my gay friend would say the opposite. He rang me up and said that he had experienced horrible homophobia, was called a nazi for not being interested women who are now men, he said he was shocked by how much bullying there is and that he was worried about women's spaces. He also said that he has many trans friends who regret the surgery. Your friend isn't the only voice in this debate.

I have a gay friend who is all in on the TWAW thing. I don’t even attempt a conversation about it - he thinks he is specially woke and inclusive. Only really because he has no skin in the game. Gay men are not necessarily free of misogyny - just because people experience prejudice on their own account, doesn’t mean they’ll behave in solidarity with women.

I'd be very wary of going into business with him to be honest. To think something like that one really must not see women as human (not even mentioning the lack of logic in these arguments. If sex doesn't matter how can he be gay? I'm not saying he's thick but...). Even ideology side, they are having a discussion about women with a woman in the room and don't even think to ask her opinion on the subject. I'm warning you - he will not treat you like an equal business partner either and it's unlikely he'll listen to your opinion. If you absolutely cannot avoid doing business with him then drop him as soon as you can because he will take a huge dump all over your company.

I also have a gay friend who thinks that

a) lesbians who don't have sex with trans women are horrible and bigoted

and

b) "of course I wouldn't sleep with a trans man are you nuts I'm gay I don't like pussy"

It is what it is. Males will have sympathy and understanding for other males.

Your friends are fuckwits. Why are you friends with such repulsive specimens? Their attitudes enable and protect rapists, and destroy the lives of rape victims.

Rape is not about sex. It's about power.

If they don't even understand that basic fact and think it is acceptable to talk about rape victims that way then they are repugnant and should be ashamed. Although clearly they won't be.

My flashbacks are about the terror and horror of realising I had no way to stop what was happening, the destruction of any control over my life and body, the violation, and the enduring loss of any sense of safety in my own body and around other human beings. I've never felt like a sex object, I felt less than human and afraid I was going to die followed by wishing I had.

Rape is about dehumanisation, degradation and domination. It's not sex.

Hence why we see mass rape used in war to break, humiliate and control a population. Do they even know about the occurrence of that?

So you are going into business, tying up your livlihood and finances, with two men who won't let you get a word in edgeways even on a topic you are clearly much more qualified in? Why?

OP, this is going to sound harsh, but I am absolutist/line in the sand type person. Why would you even want to go into business with this guy, let alone be friends with him or be around him? Why? He has made it abundantly clear that he thinks you are subhuman, and didn't even have the decency to even stop to think about including you, as a woman.

I think you are enabling their mindset by a) being friends and b) going into business with them. The fact that you admitted you didn't stand up for us women as a whole was because of money and hence you were submissive to their views, says everything. I understand you were shocked, but being worried about a business as a reason to not stand up for our gender doesn't make it much better. If it were me after a while of cooling down, I'd write them a long letter explaining how what they said affected you, that you no longer wish them to be in your lives, and you will be looking for a new business partner. Men get away with this because women are too submissive, say nothing or put financial interests ahead of the sisterhood. I'd tell him where the fuck to get with his stupid new business and tear up any document in front of him. You gotta make a decision. Enabling that sociopathic attitude and facing him at work every day, knowing what he thinks about women, so it will never leave your mind - or, you call it all off. Could you forgive yourself or live with yourself knowing you sacrificed the sisterhood for business? If you think about it, you'll come to the right decision. Some things like dignity, self respect and solidarity are priceless and worth far more than any business. Far more.

@Aesopfable

So you are going into business, tying up your livlihood and finances, with two men who won't let you get a word in edgeways even on a topic you are clearly much more qualified in? Why?

This.

I know this will sound earth shattering, given that you have enormous hopes and dreams for your business.

But this man clearly hates women and doesn't see them as human.

Please don't tie your professional and financial future to him.

(Reading your post and getting to the bit about setting up a business elicited the same horrified reaction I'd have to a friend getting engaged to a man with a history of domestic violence. Please have a rethink even if it takes you 5 years longer to start your business.)

*Kettlingur

I also have a gay friend who thinks that

a) lesbians who don't have sex with trans women are horrible and bigoted

and

b) "of course I wouldn't sleep with a trans man are you nuts I'm gay I don't like pussy"

It is what it is. Males will have sympathy and understanding for other males.*

How is a man like that your friend?
I honestly don't understand how anyone can remain friends with someone like that.

I'm guessing there is a financial aspect to your choice of business partner OP and I don't blame you for that, or even if that's not part of it. Choosing a business partner is very different from choosing a friend. This may be the first time you've seen their misogyny on display so strongly that it would be a shock. You may have seen them as decent men and now have seen a different side to them.

I've had the same with my husband TBH and also with friends I thought would be feminists and indeed they call themselves so. It's hard to process.

Posters here are warning against making a decision now that ties you to these mean who clearly are not who you thought they were. It may be too late to change it now so if that's the case and you have a fair split of roles and responsibility and investment I would raise your concerns but very, very carefully. If you can't be honest with them now I expect it will only get worse. Just take some time to have a think of you can.

I'm sorry this is happening to you, it would have been better to know sooner rather than later!

Something that is not appreciated in ones twenties (because it can't be) is that bodies have lifecycles. Our society has become so out of tune with what bodies do naturally. They are amazing. It has taken me to reach mid 50s and post menopause to really understand this. How a female body has monthly cycles and other cycles, and an internal biological clock. At this stage in my life I am in awe of the intricacy and beauty of my female body. It doesn't fit commercial stereotypes of beauty but those aren't real, they are marketing. You have to be in a female body to understand that. The intricacies of an amazing biological machine. That doesn't help with these friends, but friendship cycles come and go too. The ones that will still be with you in your 50s are the ones that appreciate your opinion, even if they disagree. I am with those who say this relationship is not healthy. But that is hard to hear. Good luck and best wishes to you.

@Kettlingur

I also have a gay friend who thinks that

a) lesbians who don't have sex with trans women are horrible and bigoted

and

b) "of course I wouldn't sleep with a trans man are you nuts I'm gay I don't like pussy"

It is what it is. Males will have sympathy and understanding for other males.

Have you pointed out the cognitive dissonance?

It's utterly bizarre how someone can hold those two views simultaneously.

I wonder what transmen think.

God, don’t go into business with this fuckwit. At best, you’ll have to listen to him mansplaining womanhood at you on the regular. At worst, he’ll walk all over you, discount your opinions and eventually fuck you over. ‘It’s the way of such men, gay or not.

You’ll end up depressed, skint or both.

Find a woman to go into business with instead.

Horrifying when you see how little some men think of women isn't it.
Be very careful going into business with this person.

In all seriousness, as one self employed woman to another DO NOT GO INTO BUSINESS WITH HIM!

You have just experienced yourself being ignored. He will do this to you often, he just doesn't value you your opinion! So why would he ever listen to you?

Tell him plainly that this experience has changed everything. That his deeply ingrained misogyny, his complete dismissal of you and your opinions has made any business partnership impossible. Quite simply he has shot himself in the foot with his arrogance!

I too would like to echo what others have said.

Why would you want to be friends with/set up a business with someone hates women (especially if you are a woman yourself)?

'Im trying to get a small company off the ground with one of them and I just can't risk that falling through at the moment

I would talk to him about his willingness to listen and collaborate given that he and another man were happy to talk at length about women while the woman in the room could barely get a word in.

He will in time discern your GC views and declare you transphobic. What then?

I do not think we need to cast ourselves as victims of our biology to have the right to define ourselves by sex rather than gender. We inhabit our material, biological bodies, as much as we think and feel. So just ad a Transwoman wants to express thoughts and feelings and present as feminine identified, so can I retain my sense of self as a biological female (aka woman). I don’t want to have to quote periods and rape to prove my female-ness, I also want to be seen for my enjoyment of breastfeeding etc.

Your friends may not be like this but don’t forget that many gay men are ‘eewwww’ about women’s bodies, while coming over all “oooooh” about the frocks.

I would be very wary of a man who declared women’s views about themselves as ‘stupid’. Especially in the context of supposed response to rape. He was saying ‘women react to rape like this and it is stupid’.

No wonder you feel the need to discuss this.

And they will have waltzed off all smug and full of their arrogant wisdom while you were left with an uneasy burden chewing away at your soul.

Fucking bastards.

I think saying these men 'hate' women may be a bit hyperbolic.
I think some men just like spouting their half-baked opinions (on many subjects), and also some don't even realise when they're talking over women or not letting them get a word in edgewise - perhaps a different perception or lack thereof of social cues?

A serious talk with the one you want to go into business with would be wise though, OP. He probably isn't even slightly aware of what they did and how you feel about it.

Agree with pp that these are not great signs for someone you're planning to go into business with. Leaving aside any discussion of misogyny etc, it shows such a staggering lack of insight and awareness, let alone empathy or ability to consider other people that I suspect they are not likely to work well as a businessperson. So much of business is about imagination, observation, empathy and communication - the conversation you describe reveals someone with a serious lack of any of these qualities.

Plus I don't think I could be in a room with them, but that's another matter.

OP think about why are you are so concerned of what they would think of you if you share your views, yet they are more than happy to share their vile views with you with no consideration at all for your experiences thoughts or feelings on the subject.

These people don't give a shit about you or your opinion about anything so why are you caring so much about what they think of you?

Re. the business, how long have you known this bloke? It sounds like he may not be very co-operative, not to mention that he appears quite unstable and prone to fantasy.

I would cut him loose, let him make his own way in the world with that attitude. He won’t get far.

I think saying these men 'hate' women may be a bit hyperbolic

I agree so I've reworded my previous post accordingly:

Why would you want to be friends with/set up a business with someone who thinks that "rape survivors in particular don't support TRAs because they've been so objectified that they've internalised it, reducing themselves down to nothing more than a sex object and sexual organs and making that their definition of being a woman" (especially if you're a woman yourself)?