A "discussion" I had with two gay friends about women's views on sex and trans women

[Oloves]

The first point I'd like to make is when I say "discussion", I mean two men talked about what women believe, think and feel in regards to sex and gender, and I couldn't even get a peep in, let alone share my view as the only woman in the room.

During this conversation, one of the most painful twists of logic I've ever heard came up. According to them, rape survivors in particular don't support TRAs because they've been so objectified that they've internalised it, reducing themselves down to nothing more than a sex object and sexual organs and making that their definition of being a woman, therefore excluding trans women. I was just sat there in shock. I couldn't even begin to unpick this at the time, I had to just sit there and listen.

The notion that the reason rape survivors may not want to be around trans women is because of their own internalised sexualisation and reduction to genitals is just so disconnected from reality and so insensitive I'm still shaken by it.

Another part that got to me was "which woman even cares about biological sex anyway?" and before I could even draw breath to answer, the other man in the room answered for me, exclaiming he had "no idea, it just seems really pointless and stupid". Before I could talk about millenia worth of collective trauma women have faced at the hands of male bodies due to their sex, before I could talk about how women are forced to confront the gory reality of their sex from such an early age in a way that is incomparable to anything a male body can experience, it was dismissed as pointless and stupid.

What got to me most was that I'm in my mid 20s and have very Liberal friends, same goes for the men I was talking to. It's incredibly rare to experience this sort of blatant dismissal of my opinions and experience with people in my age group and social circle. It really cemented the idea that women now play no part in the discussion of what being a woman is, and is almost entirely dictated by males and not something I, as a woman, even have an opinion on that's worth listening to.

I wish I would have said something and been more assertive, but I'm trying to get a small company off the ground with one of them and I just can't risk that falling through at the moment.

I'm sorry for the rant but I'm still reeling and didn't know where else I could talk about this.

OP think about why are you are so concerned of what they would think of you if you share your views, yet they are more than happy to share their vile views with you with no consideration at all for your experiences thoughts or feelings on the subject.

That is an excellent point.

I was very upset to discover my close gay friend thinks my views on sex and gender are bigoted and wrong. All of his close friends are female but it turns out that doesn't lead to any empathy with women. We agreed to disagree and don't talk about it any more, but it's definitely soured our friendship.

A couple of my gay friends think trans are only trans women who have had full surgery.

Gay men all think very different about this - just like other groups.

My gay male friends range from full on TRA (yes relationship has soured as he won't discuss issues with me), to very baffled, to totally unaware, to "its too difficult to engage with" to full on GC and working with Glinner (proud to have peaked this one).

Never, never have a business partner if you can possibly avoid it. It is harder to get out of than a marriage.

Interesting though, how enthusiastic men of all varieties, especially the ex-ones who now identify as women, are to expound and explain everything about women's feelings, sexuality, lives, beliefs and even trauma. And this when there are women looking on, unable to get a word in!

It never occurs to them to stop and say, "Why don't we ask (insert present woman's name here)? She'll know more about it than any of us possibly could!"

I'm in the habit, when asked, of saying, "I can only speak for myself - don't ask me what half the human population thinks; there's 3.5 billion of us!" But that limitation apparently doesn't stop a man pontificating on what the 3.5 billion he isn't even included in is thinking.

You don't necessarily need to get out of business with him, but you do need to have a good talk one-on-one. If he doubles down, refuses to listen to your explanations of how misogyny affect you and other women, and starts hurling accusations of transphobia at you without actually engaging with any of your points, then you do need to break it off, I think.

Did anyone else read Decca Aitkenhead's interview with Tracy Emin today? Emin has had her uterus, fallopian tubes, ovaries and part of her vagina removed because of cancer. I can't tell you how angry it makes me that some men think women don't care about biological sex. It's not that we want to. We have to.

It is funny how some gay men think women don’t know much about women. I can remember one gay friend showing me a photo of one of his male friends with make-up on and long hair and asking me “would you say this is a woman or a man?” He was astonished when I said “man.” “How can you tell? I think he looks like a woman - he wants to be a woman,” he said. Well, clearly it was a man - no matter how much they want to look like a woman, there’s so much in the face that will always be manly.

What I mean is that it always struck me as odd that he thought his male friend would do a better job of faking womanhood than he thought a woman would do of recognizing something as not female.

I take it as a compliment that so many men want to be women actually, poor things.

It's turbo boosted mansplaining, the peak of all mansplaining.

I'd too be worried about them having a disabling lack of understanding others' POV. Or ability to think with logic or criticism.

At the end of the day men just don't get or understand women. Gay, hetero, bi, or transwomen. All of them have zero comprehension of what it is to be a woman.

@Kettlingur

I also have a gay friend who thinks that

a) lesbians who don't have sex with trans women are horrible and bigoted

and

b) "of course I wouldn't sleep with a trans man are you nuts I'm gay I don't like pussy"

It is what it is. Males will have sympathy and understanding for other males.

There was a guy in my circle at one stage who thought this, it was really odd watching him try to justify it. Lesbians are abslolutely bigoted if they don't shag people with penises.

But my asking if he would be with a transman...apparently he was shocked I would even ask that as he had never considered me to be homophobic before

*There was a guy in my circle at one stage who thought this, it was really odd watching him try to justify it. Lesbians are abslolutely bigoted if they don't shag people with penises.

But my asking if he would be with a transman...apparently he was shocked I would even ask that as he had never considered me to be homophobic before* hmm

Was it Owen Jones?

Fucking hell, what a horrendous thing to say. I would have been so upset and angry, too. Them not allowing you to even speak... the situation honestly sounds bullying and abusive to me. Agree with pp questioning if you 4really want to go into business with this man.

You need to learn to speak up in these situations OP. We all do.

Imagine if you'd been sitting there with a female friend talking over one of them about what gay men think and feel, completely ignoring the actual gay man sitting next to you! It's just inconceivable.

I think it's because they see us as shells, vessels, facades - perhaps even more than many straight men do. They don't have any reason to scrape the surface and see us as people. Probably the reason female icons of gay men tend to present themselves in a very 'surface' way.

Their sexual preferences are irrelevant. I think they are misogynistic jerks who are diminishing the consequences of assault on other people. It may be that they are surprised one would expect them to view women as being people as fully as men are. They don't seem to have any empathy for women and it might be that they don't view women as anything more than 'comfort' or 'support' humans.

I take it as a compliment that so many men want to be women actually, poor things

The trouble is they don't really want to be women, do they though? Not the militant ones. They still want to maintain male privilege, which is why they have so cleverly retained the moral high ground, to prevent us even being able to discuss how we feel. Even many women accuse anyone GC as being phobic, bigoted etc. How dare you want to protect vulnerable women/retain hard-won rights/allow women's sports to function/retain your women-only shortlists, awards etc.

But they don't want to experience the not being heard side of womanhood. The fewer opportunities. The being dismissed and ignored. I don't hear them standing up for women's rights, only trans rights.

Their sexual preferences are irrelevant..

Gay men don't have to pretend to like women in order to have sex with them.

I hope you come back OP. It sounds like a difficult situation, and they were behaving really badly. It's actually really unprofessional to share half baked opinions on rape victims & what they think, with work people. Or was this a friendship social context? It sounds like there is a mix of friendship & professional relationship going on which can be tricky even if people don't share horrible opinions.

It can be v difficult to be assertive enough to intervene, especially when you are dumbfounded by what you hear. It gets easier with age. And some men really do have this confidence to blab their crap opinions when it's not backed up with anything, acting like their opinion is a true fact. Worth knowing he does that, in case he's doing it on the work project.

Can't tell you what to do about going into business with him. At least you know a bit more about him now even though it's not good news. I guess you have to think through whether to raise it. But be assured that what they said was completely wrong, you were right to be horrified.

I agree @IwishNothingButTheBestForYou2

I mean i'm sure they don't all hate us, but many definitely do.

OP, please don't go into business with either of these men.

I'd not want someone like this as a business partner.

[cross]