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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC news are about to give a report on the massive increase in transphobic hate crime

104 replies

Tissueboxcover · 27/10/2020 13:34

Just that really.
I wondered if anyone else is watching.

OP posts:
Thelnebriati · 27/10/2020 16:10

This is having real life consequences for people who have not committed any crime;

''In a nutshell I made a Subject Access Request of Wiltshire police after a Twitter account boasted I now had a 'record for life' of my 'hate'. The police disclosed to me 12 pages of screenshots that were not hateful in the least; they were mainly discussions about the GC debate that have been confirmed as protected political speech.''

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3982831-I-have-been-recorded-by-my-local-police-force-as-hateful

The tweets were recorded as hate incidents because;
''if you believe something is a hate incident it should be recorded as such by the person you are reporting it to.''
www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/hate-crime/what-are-hate-incidents-and-hate-crime/

CaraDuneRedux · 27/10/2020 16:14

I'm afraid when the BBC report things like this, I just roll my eyes and assume some poor Saturday school kid offended someone by not calling them Sir/Madam the right way round.

Which is a shame because I'm sure buried in there, there may well be some genuine transphobic abuse.

But frankly, after SANDS trolling bereaved mother's, the English RFU saying they're absolutely fine with women being exposed to a 30% greater risk of spinal injury, male bodied rapists being put in women's prisons, male bodied people being put in charge of rape crisis centres, posh fuckwits in receipt of one of the most prestigious education's one can receive calling for a college porter to be sacked for wrongthink - I find that I no longer have any fucks left to give for some poor dear who has been misgendered.

Not being nice. Not being kind.

I started out that way, but TRAs have systematically destroyed every last ounce of sympathy I had. My sympathy, my kindness, my niceness is all reserved for women - the old fashioned cunty kind.

pickingdaisies · 27/10/2020 16:44

And this is the problem. I know a genuine trans person who gets harassment and worse on a fairly regular basis. By blokes obviously. They don't bother to report it anymore. Meanwhile, we can't say the scientific biological truth without being called terfs.

Tissueboxcover · 27/10/2020 16:45

I started this thread and got completely distracted by a real life situation, so much of what I was going to say has already been said.

I did feel sad for the young transman at the start of the report. OTOH, I was bullied and excluded all the way through school, for various reasons. It has affected me my whole life and has definitely impacted my education, my life chances and my career choices. I do wonder if there are/were other issues in that young person's life. Many kids are bullied and it often goes unnoticed.

I also feel that if a society/government redefines hate crime, sets up a whole department for reporting and diverts police time and resources to it, it is not surprising that recorded incidents increase.
Misogyny, rape, domestic violence are not considered hate crimes.

I suppose my feelings on this are that very few people bother to investigate and the BBC, in particular, is very lazy when it comes to reporting.

OP posts:
StandWitch · 27/10/2020 18:40

I had a look for evidence of what they were talking about and found it here:

www.cps.gov.uk/yorkshire-and-humberside/news/yorkshire-and-humberside-hate-crime-sentence-uplift-examples

The defendant smashed a window at his mother’s house after being told he was no longer welcome there after taking drugs. He then smashed the glass in his uncle’s front door. He let himself in to his mother’s house a couple of days later despite being told not to return and he assaulted his mother. He was arrested and whilst in custody, he made transphobic remarks to a police officer and shouted racist abuse at another suspect who was in police custody. He pleaded guilty at the first hearing to assault by beating, using threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour to cause harassment, alarm or distress and two counts of criminal damage. He was sentenced to a total of 32 weeks’ imprisonment, which included two concurrent sentences of 16 weeks for the transphobic and racial offences, uplifted from 12 weeks. He was also ordered to pay a £128 victim surcharge."

So apparently the 'transphobic hate crime' was a drug addict who smashed up various family members houses, and then said rude words in custody.

The defendant headbutted the victim outside a nightclub. Later that night, he punched the victim in the face rendering him unconscious. There had been previous tension between the two parties as the victim, a trans man, was in a relationship with defendant’s ex-girlfriend and the defendant had made transphobic comments in the past. On this occasion, the defendant called the victim by his former female name immediately before headbutting him. The victim sustained a fractured eye socket and cheekbone, a cut under his eye and a blood clot behind his eye. The defendant pleaded guilty to assault occasioning actual bodily harm and inflicting grievous bodily harm. He was sentenced to 15 months’ imprisonment, suspended for 24 months, with the starting point increased by two months by way of an uplift. He was also sentenced to a 20-day Rehabilitation Activity Requirement, 150 hours’ unpaid work and a three-month curfew. He was also ordered to pay a £149 victim surcharge and £3,000 compensation. A Restraining Order was also imposed.

This is a violent man who attacked his ex's new partner. The victim appears to identify the new partner as female, which suggests that this is fundamentally motivated by lesbophobia/homophobia/misogyny

....
www.cps.gov.uk/yorkshire-and-humberside/news/cps-yorkshire-and-humberside-hate-crime-sentence-uplift-examples-2

The defendant shouted homophobic and transphobic abuse at the victim outside the victim’s property whilst brandishing a large piece of wood before smashing a window. He was then abusive to the attending officers, shouting homophobic abuse at the female officers. His abusive behaviour continued inside the police car where he spat at the officers. He pleaded guilty at the first hearing to using threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour with intent to cause fear of or provoke unlawful violence, common assault of an emergency worker and criminal damage. He was sentenced to eight weeks’ imprisonment, suspended for 12 months, uplifted from a community penalty. He was also ordered to pay £122 compensation and £85 costs. A 12-month Restraining Order was also imposed

Can't make any sense of this !?

Was anyone involved transgender? He shouted homphobic and transphobic words at the victim then also at the arresting police?

...
www.cps.gov.uk/yorkshire-and-humberside/news/cps-yorkshire-and-humberside-hate-crime-sentence-uplift-examples-1

The defendant went to meet the victim at her house after exchanging messages on a dating app. On discovering the victim is transgender, the defendant became abusive and smashed a window. He pleaded guilty to causing criminal damage and was sentenced to a 12-week curfew uplifted from eight weeks and a 20-day Rehabilitation Activity Requirement. He was also ordered to pay £200 compensation and a £90 victim surcharge

This one is clear - the defendant should not have committed criminal damage upon learning that his date was transgender.

  1. The defendant poured petrol through the victim’s letterbox and set fire to her property. The victim had previously had problems with the defendant, who repeatedly misgendered her. The defendant pleaded guilty to arson being reckless as to the endangerment of life. Due to the aggravating features in the case the Judge uplifted the sentence from a starting point of four years to five years and ten months’ imprisonment. A ten-year Restraining Order was also imposed (South Yorkshire).

See also

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-51552031

The attacker set fire to the victim's flat, due to transphobia. This is a horrific hate crime.

www.cps.gov.uk/cymruwales/news/transphobic-hate-crime-results-increased-sentence-mold-teenager

Declan Armstrong, 19, was on Chester Street in Mold when he abused the PCSO by shouting comments referring to the officer being transgender. The officer was on duty at the time and uniformed.

This was the case where the autistic teenager said ' 'Is it a boy or is it a girl?' about a police officer.

If you read some of the other hate crimes, a great number amount to people being rude to police officers. Obviously the police don't like people being rude to them, and if people use the wrong words, the police can score a hate crime conviction.

However it would seem to most people that the purpose of hate crime legislation is for cases like the transgender person whose flat was set on fire, not to protect police officer's feelings.

www.cps.gov.uk/north-east/news/cps-north-east-hate-crime-uplifts-august-2020

The Defendant, a youth, was convicted of causing intentional harassment/alarm/distress when he used insulting and derogatory transphobic language towards security staff. He was sentenced to a four-month referral order and a restraining order of twelve months. The court announced the sentence had been uplifted to reflect the transphobic nature of the offending.

The wording here is slightly odd, 'security staff' suggests multiple people. Were any of them actually transgender? It seems unlikely that they all were, and possibly none. A defendant harassing security guards is obviously antisocial and should be stopped, but it's not clear what is meant by 'transphobic nature of the offending' here.

www.cps.gov.uk/yorkshire-and-humberside/news/cps-yorkshire-and-humberside-hate-crime-sentence-uplift-examples-0

The defendant exposed himself to two trans women in a car park and masturbated in front of them. He was found guilty after trial of exposure. He was sentenced to a 12-month Community Order with a 20-day Rehabilitation Activity Requirement and 300 hours’ unpaid work, uplifted from 150 hours. He was also ordered to pay £620 towards prosecution costs, a £90 victim surcharge, and to sign the Sex Offenders Register for five years

This case involved a man who went to a dogging car park and then masturbated at two transwomen. Although this is unpleasant for the victims, it is not really clear that this is a more serious crime than masturbating at two women.

www.echo-news.co.uk/news/17475551.transgender-miranda-yardley-innocent-hate-crime/

Miranda Yardley, a transgender person was tried and found not guilty of transphobia for disagreeing with a Mermaids member (who is not transgender) on Twitter

This was the FIRST transphobic hate crime prosecution in Britain, and a debacle, as it was a political attack on a transgender person who disagreed with medically transitioning children, against an advocate for the same, who was in the process of medically transitioning her child.

www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/news/15247662.darren-mcclean-jailed-for-vile-abuse-hurled-at-a-transgender-woman-at-a-caterham-supermarket/

Darren McClean, of Highdown Lane, made the transphobic comments about Phillipa Baker while they were shopping at a Caterham supermarket on Wednesday, March 15.

Ms Baker asked McClean to stop after he launched into a tirade of abuse, but the offensive remarks continued and the 38-year-old began to take pictures of her on his mobile phone.

Security staff intervened and removed McClean from the store following the confrontation, which left Ms Baker visibly shaken.

McClean later posted the images he had taken on Facebook and persisted in making hateful comments.

Following his arrest McClean pleaded guilty to abusive behaviour to cause harassment and was sentenced to 12 months' imprisonment at Guilford Crown Court on Friday, April 21.

Although clearly this is horrible transphobic behaviour, it's hard to imagine if he had made unpleasant comments about a woman and then mocked her on Facebook that he would get 12 months in prison.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8004175/Mother-called-transgender-woman-pig-wig-convicted-sending-offensive-tweets.html

This was a Twitter dispute with an idiot on the internet and should not have been tried.

www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/aberdeen/2385808/woman-fined-after-making-abusive-comments/

Susan Montgomery pleaded guilty to acting in a threatening or abusive manner and making transphobic comments.

She chose to engage with a social media post made by Patricia Lockhart, a former councillor for Cowdenbeath on Fife Council.

The pair knew each through their work with the Scottish Labour party over a number of years.

“The accused posted a lengthy comment on the complainer’s Facebook page on the current state of the Labour Party and the complainer found it offensive.”

Montgomery’s comments revolved around the Labour Party’s attitude to trans women and her opinions on sharing certain spaces – such as changing rooms and hospitals – with trans women.

This seems like another of several cases of people being prosecuted for disagreeing with what transgender activists want.

It is not clear what amounts to transphobia here, though there might have been something; however given that she pled guilty and did not show up to court, that's far from a given. Often people subject to prosecutions such as this will plead guilty because it's a simple resolution.

She was fined £400.

I have tried to locate this, what I can find is that Patricia Lockhart, whose twitter is twitter.com/peter__lockhart but it's not clear whether this was a Twitter-related prosecution, or something else.


These are all the transphobic hate crime prosecutions I could find online for the UK with as much detail as I could find.

jj1968 · 27/10/2020 18:40

You could just look it up. Hate crimes against trans people are just as likely to involve physical violence or result in injury as the other protected strands, slightly more so in some cases: assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/925968/hate-crime-1920-hosb2920.pdf

BBC news are about to give a report on the massive increase in transphobic hate crime
PenguindreamsofDraco · 27/10/2020 18:47

Unfortunately I find myself all out of fucks to give.

StandWitch · 27/10/2020 18:51

You could just look it up. Hate crimes against trans people are just as likely to involve physical violence or result in injury as the other protected strands, slightly more so in some cases

As in some of the cases above, a person attacking their family members, then being convicted of hate crimes for using transphobic words in custody towards police officers (transgender or not), does not a transphobic attack make.

Politically driven hate crime targets do not imply an increase in actual hate crimes.

jj1968 · 27/10/2020 19:15

@StandWitch

As in some of the cases above, a person attacking their family members, then being convicted of hate crimes for using transphobic words in custody towards police officers (transgender or not), does not a transphobic attack make.

If the courts found that the transphobic and racist behaviour in the police station met the threshold for causing harassment, alarm or distress then it was a crime, and given the abuse was based on someone's race in one instance and someone's transgender status in the other then they are racist and transphobic hate crimes. There's no special treatment for trans people and all of the criticisms you make could equally be applied to other strands. Or are you suggesting all hate crime is made up really?

Kit19 · 27/10/2020 19:20

I’ll check those stats after I’ve looked up all the misogyny based hate crimes...

Oh no silly me! Misogyny is perfectly fine & not defined as a hate crime

PenguindreamsofDraco · 27/10/2020 19:40

There's no special treatment for trans people?
Aye right.

jdoejnr1 · 27/10/2020 19:47

[quote NecessaryScene1]> As for hate incidents they are recorded for statistics only.

You surely cannot be unaware of FairCop and Harry Miller's judicial review? The crime report on his record a "non-crime"?

And the damning judgment against the police's actions in that case

The effect of the police turning up at his place of work because of his political opinions must not be underestimated. To do so would be to undervalue a cardinal democratic freedom. In this country we have never had a Cheka, a Gestapo or a Stasi. We have never lived in an Orwellian society.

[/quote] I'm fully aware of the case. What the cop did was outrageously inappropriate and should never have happened. I also think the cop should've been fired. But tge fact remains that hate incidents are for statistical purposes only and the judge said the police were okay to record it as they did.
jdoejnr1 · 27/10/2020 19:48

@Thelnebriati

As for hate incidents they are recorded for statistics only.

No they arent. They show up in criminal records checks and that can stop you getting a job.

No, no they don't. Hate crimes do which are very different.
jj1968 · 27/10/2020 20:26

To be fair all information held about someone by police, including non crime information and unproven or even disproven allegations could potentially be recorded in an enhanced DBS check. These kinds of checks can only used in fairly limited circumstances, mostly jobs involving childcare or working with vulnerable adults, and information should only be included if the local Chief of Police believes it is relevent to the role. So someone who had unproven allegations of child abuse made against them may have that information released if they went for a job working with children but if they'd been accused of but never found guilty of shop lifting or something it shouldn't. So in this context a record of a hate incident may be included in an enhanced DBS but it would be very rare and is arguably justified on safeguaring grounds. if someone had a load of anti-Semitic hate incidents recorded against them and applied for a job in a Jewish School for example then perhaps there is a case for that information to be passed to the school by police.

Datun · 27/10/2020 20:58

jdoejnr1

Thelnebriati
As for hate incidents they are recorded for statistics only.

No they arent. They show up in criminal records checks and that can stop you getting a job.
No, no they don't. Hate crimes do which are very different.


According to Harry the Owl's court case, hate incidents will show up on an enhanced DBS check.

A hate incident can be determined merely by the person perceiving what they interpret as hate. It's purely subjective, and can be nothing of the sort. As the judge said.

It can also be used as a tactic, as there is no objective description.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/10/2020 21:10

Hate crimes still require a crime to be committed

Yes, and as I pointed out, misgendering tweets and stickers can fall into this category if they are perceived as motivated by hate, under numerous Acts.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/10/2020 21:13

if someone had a load of anti-Semitic hate incidents recorded against them and applied for a job in a Jewish School for example

So they would be fine to work in a normal school, you're implying? So someone with the type of "hate incident" deemed as transphobia would only be considered a problem if they applied to work at Mermaids, rather than as a teacher, social worker etc?

jj1968 · 27/10/2020 21:33

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Yes, and as I pointed out, misgendering tweets and stickers can fall into this category if they are perceived as motivated by hate, under numerous Acts.

Stickers would normally be prosecuted as criminal damage, loads of people have been done for political stickers over the years, but if they were viewed by the property owner as motivated by hatred towards one of the protected strands then they could be a hate crime. I've not heard of anyone being prosecuted simply for a misgendering tweet, there would have to be some element of harassment or an offence under the Malicious Communications Act. I guess if you repeatedly tweeted at a trans woman or sent them emails over and over again calling them a man after being asked to stop then that might meet the threshold for harassment but I'm not aware of any sucessful prosecutions for it.

So they would be fine to work in a normal school, you're implying? So someone with the type of "hate incident" deemed as transphobia would only be considered a problem if they applied to work at Mermaids, rather than as a teacher, social worker etc?

Well if would be down to the discretion of the local Chief of Police so would probably depends in the nature of the incident, how crdible the reports were, how long ago etc. But I think it was brought up in Harry's case that there would be a possibility that if he applied for a job with Mermaids or someone similar then yes the hate incident could potentially be revealed.

I think that's a very tricky area that is really about balancing safe guarding kids vs civil liberties. I suspect a charity that works with children of colour for example might want to know if someone has been accused of racism, especially if it had happened multiple times, or who was known by police to be involved in far right groups. I think there could be a potential safeguarding risk there, but without a conviction I don't really know if that's legitimate. I think it's much more clear cut in the case of someone accused but not convicted of sexual abuse or harassment. But the situation is more complex than it is often made out to be and it is at it's heart about safeguarding.

jj1968 · 27/10/2020 21:44

There's been some quite heavy sentencing passed down for stickers which fall foul of race crime legislation incidentally

www.derbyshiretimes.co.uk/news/crime/man-who-placed-racist-stickers-across-derbyshire-towns-jailed-2940363

He was sentenced to 12 months in prison and was handed a two-year restraining order to contact his neighbour and criminal behaviour order that stops him from placing stickers on any items which would be visible to others.

jdoejnr1 · 27/10/2020 22:04

@Datun

jdoejnr1

Thelnebriati
As for hate incidents they are recorded for statistics only.

No they arent. They show up in criminal records checks and that can stop you getting a job.
No, no they don't. Hate crimes do which are very different.


According to Harry the Owl's court case, hate incidents will show up on an enhanced DBS check.

A hate incident can be determined merely by the person perceiving what they interpret as hate. It's purely subjective, and can be nothing of the sort. As the judge said.

It can also be used as a tactic, as there is no objective description.

"Basic and Standard DBS checks would not include information pertaining to non-crime hate reports, but the information may be considered during an Enhanced DBS check. In order to appear on an applicant’s certificate, the information would need to satisfy the national relevancy and proportionality criteria. Incidents would not show up on CTC, SC or DV checks."
TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 27/10/2020 22:32

If only misogyny counted as a hate crime.

It’s all in how someone perceives it, right?

I perceive the slogan “trans women are women” to be misogynistic hate.

I perceive Sam Smith’s remarks that Smith wants one day to be a “mummy” to be misogynistic hate.

I perceive all attempts by any and all males to appropriate the terms “woman” and “female” as misogynistic hate.

There would be an awful lot of police forces recording an awful lot of hate incidents if women were equal in the eyes of the law to males who identify as women.

Fat chance!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/10/2020 22:34

Same here, Talking

AnotherLass · 27/10/2020 22:35

Hi i haven't read the whole thread so apologies if someone else has said it, but from the CPS's website, there were 66 convictions for transphobic hate crime in 2018-2019. Some of these did involve violence and obviously that's terrible. But just for comparison, there were 8416 convictions for race hate crime.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/10/2020 22:38

But I think it was brought up in Harry's case that there would be a possibility that if he applied for a job with Mermaids or someone similar then yes the hate incident could potentially be revealed.

So would it or should it apply if he applied for a job involving an enhanced DBS which was not directly related to trans issues?

That was the point that you nearly sidestepped.

And moreover the autistic teenager discussed in another thread did very little more than "misgendering"?

Datun · 27/10/2020 22:38

In order to appear on an applicant’s certificate, the information would need to satisfy the national relevancy and proportionality criteria

When a police officer goes round to someone's work to check their thinking, because they liked a limerick, the meaning of 'relevancy' is about as reliable as all the rest of the linguistic claptrap.

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