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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Suzanne Moore on miscarriage & the importance of language

29 replies

greyinganddecaying · 26/10/2020 17:58

Suzanne on the money as usual.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/26/we-need-to-talk-about-miscarriage-and-the-language-we-use-really-matters

OP posts:
persistentwoman · 26/10/2020 18:08

The tras will be calling for her head! Daring (again) to stand up for women's rights to our language.
It is not transphobic for women to name our experiences as females and mothers. To insist our bodies matter and that our losses are real. It is a matter of life and death

Good for her.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 26/10/2020 18:27

Good for her.

Being female isn't all lipstick and push up bras.

FindTheTruth · 26/10/2020 18:30

good article

everyone's saying the same thing, it shouldn't be hard

and this:
twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1320791806683074561

EIEIOhmygod · 26/10/2020 18:40

She's wonderful.

littlbrowndog · 26/10/2020 18:48

I still cant get my head around even why this article has to be

What has gone so wrong that women girls mothers are now dirty words

Imagine calling your mother a menstruator or birthing parent or chest feeder

Floisme · 26/10/2020 18:51

Oh that made me cry. It makes me angry too. When I was young, miscarriage was something you only spoke about with your closest friends, and then in whispers and euphemisms. Now I'm hurtling towards old age and it enrages me to see it beginning again.

startrek90 · 26/10/2020 19:08

Language is so important. This article had touched home as its the 3rd anniversary of my miscarriage, I already felt awful enough (not to mention guilty and like I couldn't talk about it) I would have felt awful being referred to as a birthing parent. Not in the least because I didn't get to give birth, my baby had died.

Women not only have the right to talk about their experiences, but we often need to talk about them. We need help to come to terms with our loss. Frankly anyone objecting to the terminology when discussing pregnancy loss clearly doesn't give a stuff about grieving women.

LaVitaPuoEsserePiuBella · 26/10/2020 19:09

Thank you for posting this article.

I am still trying to work out how to tackle a comment my younger brother - mid-30s, aspiring hospital consultant - recently made about "people having the menopause". I'm genuinely curious: are medics now routinely expected NOT to use the words girls/women when referring to medical issues only ever experienced by girls and women?

I am going to forward this article to him...

CaraDuneRedux · 26/10/2020 19:26

That is a wonderful and moving article.

BrassicaRabbit · 26/10/2020 19:49

Thanks for posting this. I bloody love Suzanne Moore. It's great the Guardian published this. One of their other (female!) journalists on twitter described bereaved mothers objecting to being dehumanised as bullies and despicable. When your belief system demands that you speak like that to grieving women, who have experienced something particular to women, isn't it time to perhaps question it? There are ways to disagree without such cruelty.

HeirloomTomato · 26/10/2020 19:53

Wonderful article. Ten years ago, the missed miscarriage I had at 12 weeks was what brought me to mumsnet. I needed a space that was woman-centred, anonymous and that would take away the terror I was feeling about what had gone wrong in my body. And here I am a decade later, not even living in the UK anymore, still coming back to this site because it's one of the few uncompromisingly feminist and woman-focused places I can find on the internet. Yet they say we're hateful just because women need a space to share about our lives and bodies that is away from the male gaze and the male drive to dismiss, minimise and ridicule us.

It makes me mad just thinking about how this site has been vilified when it is a source of important support to so many women dealing with issues men have no comprehension of, however they 'identify'.

ArabellaScott · 26/10/2020 21:48

Oh, Suzanne. Flowers

startrek90 Flowers

I can't quite believe some of the responses on that Sands Twitter thread.

*I still cant get my head around even why this article has to be

What has gone so wrong that women girls mothers are now dirty words*

Indeed.

CaraDuneRedux · 26/10/2020 21:56

Someone has posted a beautifully succinct summary of the other Guardian journos who have not come out of this smelling of roses (thanks to Diana@TheMoominmama for this very helpful summary):

The uk charity for parents who experience stillbirth and pregnancy loss - Sands, tried to be inclusive of the tiny minority of trans men who ever gave birth in a tweet describing all those who give birth as birthing parents.

Women who have lost babies through miscarriage and stillbirth explained to the charity that we did not want to have the words we use to describe our relationship to our dead children minimised or erased. We prefer to be called mothers.

Women have had to campaign to be recognised as grieving mothers by the medical profession and society after pregnancy loss. Sands campaigned. It hurts us deeply to be diminished and dismissed as ‘not mothers’. Language matters.

We explained to sands why it matters. We told of our losses. Experiences. Grief. Children.

Freddy McConnell decided to attack us for wanting the word mother used, & for having feelings on the subject & daring to explain why it matters to us. Freddy says no one is allowed to have or express any issue with not being called a mother. It’s transphobic. We are bullies.

Freddy went to court and wrote about their experience in the guardian for the right not to be called mother of their child’s birth certificate.

Words and being a parent matter a great deal to Freddy. But no one else is allowed to care about words, or being a mum.

Elle Hunt also freelance Guardian writer. Decided to join in. Calling the women disgraceful.

Mums who lost babies are disgraceful for wanting to being called mums.

[Elle Hunt has protected her tweets so this no longer shows up - but she hasn't taken the tweet down, as far as I know. So she's still calling mothers disgraceful, but is too cowardly to say so in public.]

TweeBree · 26/10/2020 22:02

I clicked the link to Sands twitter and noticed this comment:

"Mother, bark and spit are just three of 23 words that researchers believe date back 15,000 years, making them the oldest known words."
www.seeker.com/15000-year-old-words-1767492531.html

nepeta · 26/10/2020 22:05

Moore is trying to say the same thing that JK Rowling tried to say: That for most women being a woman is inextricably linked with having a female body. To erase that connection does feel like a complete invalidation of one's gender, to borrow from the trans arguments.

So now the closest term to my identity appears to be 'menstruator.' We are going to have books about "famous menstruators throughout history" and discussions about the past of "menstruators' rights.' All because very tiny groups are prioritised.

keepwomensportforwomen · 26/10/2020 22:05

@HeirloomTomato
I am getting so utterly angry by all of this and the only way I can channel it is by donating to FairPlay- I am fortunate in that I can afford to having started a new job that pays well. Pleased to see their crowdfunder is climbing ever upwards.

keepwomensportforwomen · 26/10/2020 22:11

Sorry my post was part erased- I wanted to commiserate with HeirloomTomato having gone through very similar myself. The sadness never leaves you completely, and mumsnet was a great help to me 💐

nepeta · 26/10/2020 22:13

[quote keepwomensportforwomen]@HeirloomTomato
I am getting so utterly angry by all of this and the only way I can channel it is by donating to FairPlay- I am fortunate in that I can afford to having started a new job that pays well. Pleased to see their crowdfunder is climbing ever upwards.[/quote]
I donated, too, and can barely justify it from my budget. But it felt good to do something.

HecatesCats · 26/10/2020 22:14

Suzanne, thank you, this moved me to tears 
for you and for the other women on this thread who have experienced the pain of miscarriage. I can't even begin to understand the callousness of the individuals on social media telling women who've experienced stillbirth that, they're sorry, but they should be quiet in case a tiny minority of people, who need specialist support, feel upset or excluded. I miscarried at 8 weeks, a year before I finally conceived my first child. It had taken years to even get to the point of conception. I bled out my longed for baby throughout a work event at a children's unit for seriously ill kids - it felt like a dream, a strange, malicious joke. The first thing I did when I left was speak to other women. Women who had experienced it themselves, and much worse. Women who could relate about how their female bodies had shaped their experiences. Woman, mother, they are such powerful words aren’t they? There's so much wrapped up in them. I’m not actually surprised they want to take them away.

HecatesCats · 26/10/2020 22:14

I'm sorry, my flowers didn't appear, here they are ThanksThanksThanks

ArabellaScott · 26/10/2020 22:40

"Mother, bark and spit are just three of 23 words that researchers believe date back 15,000 years, making them the oldest known words."

Love this.

Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud · 26/10/2020 22:43

@nepeta

Moore is trying to say the same thing that JK Rowling tried to say: That for most women being a woman is inextricably linked with having a female body. To erase that connection does feel like a complete invalidation of one's gender, to borrow from the trans arguments.

So now the closest term to my identity appears to be 'menstruator.' We are going to have books about "famous menstruators throughout history" and discussions about the past of "menstruators' rights.' All because very tiny groups are prioritised.

It's happening in Canada to a seemingly worse degree "menstruators who miscarry". This is by a "women's charity".
Suzanne Moore on miscarriage & the importance of language
Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud · 26/10/2020 23:05

I completely agree. Powerful words.

Flowers sorry for your loss x

nepeta · 26/10/2020 23:27

It's happening in Canada to a seemingly worse degree "menstruators who miscarry". This is by a "women's charity".

GRRRRR

HeirloomTomato · 27/10/2020 05:59

Thank you, @keepwomensportforwomen. It's so long ago now and thankfully I have had children since then. My miscarriage emphasized to me how female bodies suffer through things that mainstream society never acknowledges. It was a jarring and isolating experience when the reality of female biology hit me square in the face.

What enrages me is that we women had about a five-minute window when the world finally let us talk about miscarriage and stillbirth - and then the trans lobby comes to tell us we need to shut up and talk about it in a way that fits the needs of male-born people?? No fucking way.

It's enraging. And yet I personally know other women who have been through horrible losses, far worse than mine, who would still bend over backwards to appease the trans lobby and use the 'right' words because they've been conditioned all their lives to be nice. Not me. I won't step aside and be nice to people who couldn't care less about me or any woman on the planet, only their own narcissistic fantasies.

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