Sydney Herald "Younger men failing to recognise domestic violence" shocking survey.

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amp.smh.com.au/lifestyle/life-and-relationships/incredibly-shocking-younger-men-failing-to-recognise-domestic-violence-20201024-p56864.html?__twitter_impression=true

Really distressing survey on young men's attitude to violence against women and girls. It's 2020 and young men still think it's acceptable to hit their girlfriends.

It reminds me of this:

Almost a third of the men (31.7 percent) said that in a consequence-free situation, they’d force a woman to have sexual intercourse

www.thecut.com/2015/01/lots-of-men-dont-think-rape-is-rape.html

How interesting to find that age gradient! The oldest men were the best informed. And the young women were less informed than middle-aged men.

This must show a change in the popular culture and not in a good direction. It would be interesting to see similar studies done in other countries.

I'm not surprised.

When we are going backwards on women's rights, it will be reflected in the parts of the community most vulnerable to being shaped ie young people.

The more women are dehumanised, through porn, decrim of buying sex, TRA and MRA views of women as privileged and pampered, the less likely it is that young boys see hitting us as so bad.

I'd assume it reflects a desensitisation - these young men have seen violence normalised at home.

Not sure if it was this study or an earlier one, but Gen X men actually have better recognition of what VAWG involves, and it's unacceptability, suggesting that we are indeed going backwards in terms of education.

I have to ask - what acts would the 40% consider to be DV? Given they don’t accept that hitting, restraining, raping are....

I don't think the young men fail to recognise it. They know hitting someone, punching her, is violent. They're not idiots. I bet they all know it's wrong, abusive and illegal.

They just don't think it matters. Because women don't matter, except for sex. And other domestic services.

@CinnabarRed

I have to ask - what acts would the 40% consider to be DV? Given they don’t accept that hitting, restraining, raping are....

Murder?

Though they are likely to believe 'she asked for it', I suppose.

I think they don't accept the concept of DV.

Is part of the problem here classifying domestic abuse as violence? It troubles me that we call things that aren’t violent, violence. If asked, I wouldn’t agree that isolating someone from their friends is violence.

However, I certainly don’t think this is the important take away message here, given the horrors in this survey.

@PaleBlueMoonlight

Is part of the problem here classifying domestic abuse as violence? It troubles me that we call things that aren’t violent, violence. If asked, I wouldn’t agree that isolating someone from their friends is violence.

However, I certainly don’t think this is the important take away message here, given the horrors in this survey.

They think punching a girlfriend isn't DV Hard to see how that doesn't fit the idea of abuse = violence.

It's not like they are missing the finer points of coercive control.

I agree. Maybe my post was too rushed and didn’t de-emphasise my point enough. It is a tiny point given the overall horrors of this, survey, but it leaped out at me so I thought I’d say it.

Someone can only isolate another person if that person is afraid of some kind of retribution. The threat of violence can be as effective as actual violence and should be considered as the abuse that it is.

@PaleBlueMoonlight

Is part of the problem here classifying domestic abuse as violence? It troubles me that we call things that aren’t violent, violence. If asked, I wouldn’t agree that isolating someone from their friends is violence.

However, I certainly don’t think this is the important take away message here, given the horrors in this survey.

Someone not aware of how domestic violence works over time might see it that way. When I was a student a friend of mine told about another young woman whose boyfriend controlled every minute of her day, exploding if she was late from a lecture by even one minute.

I had no idea what such a behaviour meant, but over time I learned that isolating the victim is a very common aspect of long-term abuse. It makes the victim much less able to seek help when the abuse happens.

I agree. I said it is abuse, but it isn’t violence. The abuse might be as bad as if it were actual violence, but we need words to have meanings.

@PaleBlueMoonlight

I agree. I said it is abuse, but it isn’t violence. The abuse might be as bad as if it were actual violence, but we need words to have meanings.

Perhaps physical violence and mental/emotional violence? The latter can sometimes be more destructive in the longer view if it manages to destroy someone's self-confidence and self-esteem.

I am still not sure that it is helpful to classify something non-physical as violence. Abuse should surely be a powerful enough word? If not, Ibthink the appropriate thing is to make people understand that emotional/mental abuse can have devastating effects (And I agree the effects can be even more devastating than violence), not to try and ride on the abhorrence that is already felt about violence (though apparently not amongst large swathes of young men). I want words to be accurate so that we know what we are talking about.

In what way is using force/power to inflict psychological injuries on someone not violent?

In the UK the legal system recognises domestic abuse as being as serious as physical violence.
There isn't a hierarchy with one being worse than the other, any more than there is a hierarchy of sexual assault and rape.

If you believe the threat of violence cant be as bad as actual violence you haven't really understood how living with the threat of violence can destroy your sense of self, as much as physical violence can destroy your body.

www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/domestic-abuse

Psychological violence exists, as those of us who have experienced it know.

These boys don't recognise punching their girlfriend as abuse. Let's stay with that for a bit.

Refuse to recognise, is a better way of putting it.

If that was directed at me theinebriati then I have not said that I believe that, quite the opposite. I just don’t want to use the word violence for non-violent acts. That view says nothing about how I might regard the the harm caused to the victim by the abuse, whether violent or not.

Its all called domestic abuse. Violent acts can be called domestic violence.

I saw this elsewhere earlier and I was disgusted but not surprised. This world is going backwards. I'm so scared for women and girls.

@Thelnebriati

Its all called domestic abuse. Violent acts can be called domestic violence.

Totally agree with that.

Anyway, sorry for derail. I think it is an important point, but not as important as the concern this survey raises.

I agree with that. Violence needs to remain clearly defined - because we suffer so, so much more of it, and we are physically less able to defend ourselves, as well as inflict equivalent harm on the rare occasions women are violent.

We've seen where the idea that words can equal violence has led, and it's certainly not anywhere good for the half of the human race who are rarely violent, but all too often in receipt of it.

None of that is to downplay the horrors of coercive control and emotional abuse. They're linked, absolutely, but we are in the state we are because of language being twisted out of shape. Words have meanings, and we need to retain them if we want to be able to assert a shared reality, based on facts.

Having said that - this doesn't surprise me. Young people are being told that women are privileged compared to strapping young males asserting a gender identity contrary to their sex. Porn doesn't help, either. We are seeing more violence towards women, more denigration of women, and less understanding of that, and grossly reduced chances of consequence - yet human behaviour hasn't changed one jot. The world we currently inhabit is more nakedly misogynist than any I can remember - it's shocking to think how far we've fallen, and how fast.

@nepeta

How interesting to find that age gradient! The oldest men were the best informed. And the young women were less informed than middle-aged men.

This must show a change in the popular culture and not in a good direction. It would be interesting to see similar studies done in other countries.

I'm not sure this should be seen as too surprising- older people generally are better informed about human behaviour and its consequences than younger, surely, just because of direct and indirect experience.

How do we change this? Should schools be making the teaching of consent a priority.? Should respect for women and girls be taught in the same ways as respect for other minority groups?