University 'feminist' discussion group

[FeministFatale]

I've namechanged for this because some friends know my normal username. I'm affiliated to a university and I've been invited to a feminism discussion group.
The topic of the first session? The effects of the pandemic on women, trans rights and feminism. The section on trans rights includes some 'pre-reading' with a link to one blog (by a man, obviously) about the 'transphobia' that has fuelled the UK not bringing in self-ID. Not a link to this and say, Karen Ingala-Smith or even someone like Debbie Hayton who is trans but against self-ID for an opposing view. Needless to say, it is very one sided and doesn't even mention the reasons why feminists have campaigned for single sex spaces. In fact, it frames the people arguing against self-ID as anti-feminist, with a clear implication that anyone who rejects self-ID (whether because they don't believe TWAW or simply because they think it makes it too easy for male abusers to, you know, abuse) cannot be a feminist.
Arguing for protecting the rights of vulnerable women is being couched, in a university feminist reading group, as intrinsically unfeminist.
Question is, do I complain, or do I read with caution the message included in the invitation that 'any exclusionary behaviour towards LGBTQIA+' will not be tolerated. It's pretty clear that this discussion group does not, in fact, want a discussion at all.

Given that this discussion group aren't going to discuss ( dictionary def: a conversation or debate about a specific topic ) but merely be an echo chamber of set ideas, I don't think I'd bother attending.

In fact, it frames the people arguing against self-ID as anti-feminist, with a clear implication that anyone who rejects self-ID (whether because they don't believe TWAW or simply because they think it makes it too easy for male abusers to, you know, abuse) cannot be a feminist.

Men who think they may decide what is or isn't feminist are about as misogynist as it's possible to be.

Sounds like your uni group is highly privileged and anti-women. I'd probably be thinking about that a lot while sitting there listening to them describe the ways to centre men and ignore the needs of vulnerable women.

It sounds like they have no interest in debate and that is very disappointing. I wouldn't waste my time going.

Can you play dumb and just ask lots of very innocent questions? Say that you've heard a very "TERFy" argument but you're not sure how to respond and can they help you?

It's not worth going is it? Can you feed back that whilst you're interested in the trans perspective you thought this was the feminist group and are thus puzzled at the blending of the two distinct issues. Does the LGBTQIA-fairy dust- and-unicorns group devote its sessions to women's issues in a reciprocal fashion??

They are so scared, aren't they, that somebody might turn up and say the unsayable. But by now these preemptive bannings of challenging views have become ritualistic and boring, so maybe the participants are all secretly waiting for someone to transgress?

I don't know how much power you have or what you have to lose at this fine educational establishment, OP, but I'd be tempted to sit there, listen for a while, say something devastating (maybe along the lines of aren't they bored with the discourse policing and do they really believe that trans rights are the priority for feminism?) and then leave.

Or maybe bring in sex-disaggregated data which is quite important in the covid context.

Sometimes I wonder if these pocket authoritarians are just trying to see what they can get away with, and it gives them a little thrill. Obviously if it's a reading group they can read what they want but it is very much against the spirit of a university to be so one-sided. Maybe just don't go, don't reward them with attention.

I’m sorry OP, I think if they get an inkling that you are GC you’ll be out on your ovaries!

I’d like to think I’d channel my inner Magdalen in this situation. In reality it depends on you as a person, what you’d feel happy doing and whether you could live with the consequences surrounded by the woke bros.

I like PPs idea of bringing sex segregated data along....can’t argue with scientific data can they?

I would be declining and letting them know that a feminist group providing pre reading written by man about who he thinks is a suitable feminist doesn't sound at all inspiring.

Oh dear. Part of me would want to get in there and put the feminist side of the story. Or ask questions they can never answer, such as "With self-ID, what stops a rapist from following a woman into the women's loo/refuge/shelter saying he's a woman?" or "With self-ID, how can you tell which athletes are genuine transwomen and which are just pretending to be, in order to win women's medals?".

But I'm sorry to say most of me just looks at the agenda and thinks life is too short to bother with this.

And then I feel guilty because I'm leaving other women to do all the work.

I’d give it a miss. It isn’t as advertised.

This is one of the things that upsets me about university capture. That young people cannot find a safe place to discuss ideas, which is what university is for. Perhaps the only thing it is for, given that study can be completed quietly on one's own. Having said that this group sounds well and truly captured and I anticipate you will be on the receiving end of some poor behaviour if you even question gently. So I don't think I would recommend playing dumb etc. I would try to somehow puts some feelers out for like minds to at least have some back-up before I spoke. I might also put a few of Posie's stickers in the women's loos :) Good luck OP.

I feel like I should challenge it but I'm not sure I have the energy and I definitely don't have the power!

any exclusionary behaviour towards LGBTQIA+' will not be tolerated

It's like in The Walking Dead. These people have been bitten already, there's nothing you can do. Save your strength for another fight.

They are feminists, but they are inclusive, which doesn't satisfy your narrow view of the world. If you can't tolerate their views, then best to stay away. If you want a more open minded discussion then you're free to attend.

It's an evening of your life you'll never get back. I'd swerve it.

Or, since they have several topics up for discussion, you could pre-emptively suggest a paper about women being adversly affected by coronavirus (the multiple load of home working, home schooling, homework, being everyone's emotional support person) and see if you could filibuster so long it ate into the 99% of the evening they had earmarked for discussing trans issues.

It's what I did on our equality and diversity course at work - kept bringing the discussion back to the poor levels of representation of BAME employees in our company, disability issues etc.

Feminism doesn’t prioritise the view of men @ChaChaCha2012 that’s kind of the point.

@FeministFatale if you don’t have the energy please don’t do it you’re there to get your future sorted and that is a feminist statement in itself.

I'd like to request that if you have the energy you use the opportunity. The organisers and the people that attend aren't all going to have identical views, and you can show another side to / version of feminism that might be of use to some of the women there.

@ChaChaCha2012 I'd be delighted to attend and have a genuine discussion if they were up for that.
If they had put forward both sides of the debate as pre-reading, I would happily read, listen and discuss (clearly, I did read anyway). It's the fact they have put up one side, and moreover a version of it which misrepresents the other entirely, and then put an embargo on actually discussing anything but the exact views they have put forward.
I'm not saying you can't have 'inclusionary feminism' as you put it (although I don't agree with your name for it - it may include transwomen but then by definition excludes women who have suffered trauma from male abusers and women from certain religious and ethnic backgrounds). But I am saying that if you seek to silence the genuine concerns of women who have suffered at the hands of abusers, then you probably aren't a feminist. A feminist would listen to those concerns and acknowledge them even if they felt they were unfounded and based on misunderstanding.

@Escapeplanning

I would be declining and letting them know that a feminist group providing pre reading written by man about who he thinks is a suitable feminist doesn't sound at all inspiring.

Yup.

I would go.

Exactly what do they mean by "will not be tolerated" - what do they intend to do?
What do they mean by "exclusionary behaviour"?

At my DS's university, many of the students are getting heartily sick of this kind of thing. These people really have shot themselves in the foot with their "no debate" nonsense.

Sounds like a complete waste of time, especially if you don't have the energy to argue with them. If they get an inkling you might be a 'terf' it is possible they might make your experience at university a bit difficult by spreading rumours about you around or something. They don't sound like the sort of people who would be up for hearing differences of opinion.

It's a shame that there's no room for debate and open minded discussions for young people at universities these days.

Unless you want to start your own secret feminist group and carefully find like minded women who are up for reading and discussing women-centered topics.

I would go because I'm nosy and want to know what's being said. And then I would try to set up my own ACTUAL feminist group. Best of luck whatever you do!

@ChaChaCha2012

They are feminists, but they are inclusive, which doesn't satisfy your narrow view of the world. If you can't tolerate their views, then best to stay away. If you want a more open minded discussion then you're free to attend.

Why should feminism include men?

I don’t go to LGBT meetings and say the debate isn’t inclusive of heterosexuals or BAME groups and say you’re excluding white people or to feminist meetings and ask why we’re not talking about donkey sanctuaries because that makes no sense and I’m not a twat.