BBC Bitsize - Pronouns

[OhHolyJesus]

I mean I'm not surprised but Bitesize is used by schools through the country as a supposed reliable, unbiased source of education material.

mobile.twitter.com/SafeSchools_UK/status/1319025713475952641?fbclid=IwAR0rTBD2j5PKOeTKvYSSX90c4RUDmJDo7Zg613qnDBXNaAncv3J8epYWLSQ

You can complain here:

www.bbc.co.uk/contact/complaints/make-a-complaint

Or email your MP and cc MPs Safe Schools Alliance on info@safeschoolsallianceuk.

In the tweet thread there are some people already complaining. I'm not a defund the BBC kind of person but I can see why license fee layers are questioning what the BBC are doing with their money (there is a website 'BBC complaints' that's all about biased Brexit coverage).

Women's rights are always very hard to fight for and are at risk when they are won, JJ.

Do you read the news around what women are fighting for around the world, JJ?

I'd be interested in how you think women could do better when the odds are stacked against them so heavily. Where did the women in Poland, for example, go wrong? What's your advice to them ?

I think Poland should be a stark warning to anyone who believes allying with the religious right against trans people is a good idea.

@jj1968

I think Poland should be a stark warning to anyone who believes allying with the religious right against trans people is a good idea.

What is fascinating about the current situation is that the horseshoe theory of politics does seem to apply to questions about women's rights (in the traditional meaning). Both ends of the political spectrum appear quite eager to get rid of them and there are some similarities in the way both ends view gender roles and norms as ultimately essentialist. The only difference is that on the left one can move from one gender box to another, but the gender boxes are there still and they are made more rigid by the argument that not having them is bad for trans people whose transition is helped by being able to adopt clear gender-linked occupations, modes of dressing, makeup and so on.

both ends view gender roles and norms as ultimately essentialist.

I don't know a single trans person who believes that.

I think basing your entire strategy to save women from extinction on suing people, letter writing and lobbying MPs is frightfully middle class.

I am not sure what you think women should actually be doing about it in this time of covid. Protest in the streets? Ok, shall I bring my child too? Can I afford to miss a day’s pay when finances are so risky? You realise just how many women are carers whether for old, young or just in need. .... yes ... so middle class indeed.

Again and again you continue to prove just how little you actually know about women and our lives. Please do keep it coming though, this has been a most enlightening thread.

@jj1968

I think Poland should be a stark warning to anyone who believes allying with the religious right against trans people is a good idea.

What does the situation in Poland have to do with trans people? Are abortion rights anti-trans, somehow? I don't get it. It's got a vague threat like quality, that statement, yet I cannot get the ends to pull together to make sense.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

The problem is that some people don't see women as real people and our oppression as a legitimate cause. Some of the comments, we could be in a 70s snooker club.

Lots of young educated women don't see women as oppressed only on the basis of their sex and that's why they focus on other types of oppression in their activism. I'm not sure how they reconcile that idea with the clearly sex-based incidence of sexual harassment and sexual violence, but they appear to keep the two apart in their minds, on the whole. This is partly due to the partial successes of the second wave of feminism which means that most of the sexist treatment that used to occur in schools and education is no longer there (or at least less visible). The worse stuff begins when one starts working.

But I do have noticed that there is a wider diffuse sense of the class women as not somehow mattering very much. The expectation is that we will be kind and permeable in our political activism and that we will put the needs of others first and that we will privilege other causes over feminism. So when that expectation fails to materialise, great anger erupts.

You didn't answer the question though JJ

'I'd be interested in how you think women could do better when the odds are stacked against them so heavily. Where did the women in Poland, for example, go wrong? What's your advice to them ?'

@jj1968

What is "polite" about forcing someone to tell a lie?

It's not a lie, pronouns are based on gender. And it's rude because people find it upsetting and it makes them uncomfortable.

For a period of time when I was a kid and trying desperately to ignore my gender dysphoria and fit in as a boy a bunch of other kids took to using a feminised version of my name and referring to me as she. It was bullying. Why would you want to be like that? Would you like to be treated like that? Why not just be polite?

I do wonder whether some of those kids have grown up to be gender critical and are now going round misgendering trans people in an attempt to bully and belittle them. Pronouns are often used to bully, if you don't know that then that's probably because you're pretty gender conforming and so it's never happened to you.

I'm sorry you suffered that sort of bullying. That was cruel. No, I don't think anyone on here would want to be like those bullies.

But can you not see that not everyone claiming to be under the trans umbrella is like you? You are advocating for some very dodgy fellow-travellers. The people on here who are protesting aren't protesting about you personally but about all those chancers and undesirables - and there are far too many of them - who hang on your coat tails.

The issue of compelled speech is not just about politeness. It's more about compulsion. It's more about being able to see how people with a penis feel entitled to push around people without.

@jj1968

I think Poland should be a stark warning to anyone who believes allying with the religious right against trans people is a good idea.

The only people I see obsessed with the whole bizzare concept of allying are Twitter LGBT groups. It's a bit of an obscure idea. Out in the real world no-one spends any time talking about allies.

" both ends view gender roles and norms as ultimately essentialist.*

I don't know a single trans person who believes that."

Quote from another thread about transwomen in sport.
" We think like women
We feel like women
We act like women
We dress like women "

It was then referred to the Office of the Independent Adjudicator for Higher Education who backed the University.

Yes, the Adjudicator said it was "reasonable" for the university to reach the conclusions it did. These conclusions were that the political implications of publishing research that might be seen as controversial and lead to both university and researcher being attacked for it was too big of a risk.

You claimed it was rejected because the research would have been low quality. That was not raised as a concern at any point in this dispute. That's because James Caspian wasn't just a genuine supporter of people who identify as trans but also someone with many years experience in the field of psychotherapy and this patient group. I'm not sure there are a lot of people with the same credentials.

For anyone who cares to know, James Caspian was denied permission to bring a judicial review on technical grounds, not on the subject matter itself (applying for a JR outside of the time limit and applying for a JR against the wrong institution).

I just don't understand any of this.

JJ do you think there should be a word to describe to 50 % of the world's population who when they're born everyone says 'it's a girl'. Who have been oppressed globally and still are for as long as anyone can remember. What do you think this group should be called?

Every human society on the planet knows what woman, girl, are. In all the languages. Sex is the most basic characteristic that we note of each other.

Are we allowed a word? What is it?

'if you don't know that then that's probably because you're pretty gender conforming and so it's never happened to you'

Erm no, lots of women become feminists because we notice gender and struggle against it.

We could have been allies. Why push so far? To take our words? The things we have fought for to have a chance? Why?

This is partly due to the partial successes of the second wave of feminism which means that most of the sexist treatment that used to occur in schools and education is no longer there

I don't know about anyone else, but while my pesky female socialisation held me back a bit, it wasn't really until I became a mother that I started experiencing glaring, undeniable great lumps of discrimination

@SophocIestheFox

The greatest trick GCs played was convincing TRAs all we do is post on Mumsnet

Yup!

This place is the departures board, but the GC trains call at all stations

But so many women learn about these issues from Mumsnet - it's a wonderful learning resource. Not only that, but it's very accessible. Anyone who disagrees with the women on this board is absolutely welcome to come and debate us. The fact that so many choose not to is telling in itself.

Anyway, I don't go on marches. I wasn't interested in wearing a pussy hat. I'm not sure marches are particularly effective anyway (did it stop the war?), and I'm not convinced that everything the suffragettes did helped their cause.

However, over the last year I've written to politicians. I've challenged organisations over their policies. I have done my best not to get sacked so I've been able to donate money to various crowdfunders. I've written letters of support to people in the public eye who have been brave enough to speak up on this issue. I post on here in the hope that more people will find out what's going on. I share stuff on other platforms to try and raise awareness of the conflict between trans rights and women's rights.

Yeah, perhaps I could take to the streets and go on a hunger strike. On balance, I think these actions are probably more effective.

Sexist treatment does go on in schools. It may be less legal and more covert but

Girls assaulted. Sex based Uniform rules because the males find things distracting. Entire years with no female a level physics students

Oh, I completely agree that this is a great resource, don’t get me wrong edge. I’m absolutely not doing it down.

I just think it’s enormously helpful to be underestimated. If people think that MN is a silly, frivolous place where bubble headed mummies get in a tizz about weaning, then fine - let them think that. If they also believe that when we do manage to wrench our eyes away from the contents of a nappy and are introduced to the concept of women’s rights being important, that all we do is get impotently “hysterical” about it on here- then good! Let them think that, too.

If people believe that MN is the Prosecco stormfront and it’s actually full of Russian bots pretending to be ordinary British women, then fine, whatever. It’s all part of that weird phenomenon that MN has always been - simultaneously irrelevant and monstrously threatening - women talking together have always had that power, in men’s eyes.

We know that none of that is really true and can get on with doing the work- here and elsewhere.

Girlguiding's Girls' Attitudes Survey 2017 found 64% of girls aged 13-21 had
experienced sexual violence or sexual harassment at school or college in the past
year. This included 39% having their bra strap pulled by a boy and 27% having
their skirts pulled up within the last week. ( quote from Gov UK report on sexual harassment in schools and colleges)

@NiceGerbil

I just don't understand any of this.

JJ do you think there should be a word to describe to 50 % of the world's population who when they're born everyone says 'it's a girl'. Who have been oppressed globally and still are for as long as anyone can remember. What do you think this group should be called?

Every human society on the planet knows what woman, girl, are. In all the languages. Sex is the most basic characteristic that we note of each other.

Are we allowed a word? What is it?

'if you don't know that then that's probably because you're pretty gender conforming and so it's never happened to you'

Erm no, lots of women become feminists because we notice gender and struggle against it.

We could have been allies. Why push so far? To take our words? The things we have fought for to have a chance? Why?

Fab post that sums up the tragedy of all this. Instead of aiming to be allies so often the tactics of aggression, oppression and dismissing women's views and rights is adopted. This thread is a classic example of it with so many slurs thrown at women.

Yy @midgebabe - there's a great chapter on this in Why Women Are Blamed For Everything.

Biological women are being redefined as..
Cervix havers
Menstruaters
People with Virginia’s
Cis women
Gender critical women who don’t buy into these labels are called
TERFs
Bigot’s
Transphobic
For this ideology to continue .. we can never challenge men who identify as being a woman, we are expected to just call them women.. no other labels .. allow them into all protected women/girls spaces, our sports and just shut up about it. .. hmmm .. let’s see if actual biological women will accept that when real women realise what is happening...

What does the situation in Poland have to do with trans people? Are abortion rights anti-trans, somehow? I don't get it. It's got a vague threat like quality, that statement, yet I cannot get the ends to pull together to make sense.

I'd think that abortion rights are anti-trans because transwomen can't have abortions? Something like that anyway.

Taking away a person's name has always been a way to put people in their place and existed in Britain until relatively recently.

www.pbs.org/manorhouse/edwardianlife/family_address.html

So hardly surprising that when you wish to oppress a group the first thing you do is remove their right to define themselves and impose a definition on them.

@334bu

Taking away a person's name has always been a way to put people in their place and existed in Britain until relatively recently.

www.pbs.org/manorhouse/edwardianlife/family_address.html

So hardly surprising that when you wish to oppress a group the first thing you do is remove their right to define themselves and impose a definition on them.

Wow, this is such a fundamental point that I have never really thought about before.

And its once again back to

Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.

However, over the last year I've written to politicians. I've challenged organisations over their policies. I have done my best not to get sacked so I've been able to donate money to various crowdfunders. I've written letters of support to people in the public eye who have been brave enough to speak up on this issue. I post on here in the hope that more people will find out what's going on. I share stuff on other platforms to try and raise awareness of the conflict between trans rights and women's rights.

I think jj's attack on these things as being middle class was because he knows they're having an effect. The GRA is only going to have small amendments, and crucially, self ID isn't happening. Schools and councils have been forced to withdraw illegal and harmful guidance. jj would much rather see us impotently waving banners, shouting slogans, rioting and getting arrested (he has said more than once how disappointed he is that we're not all in prison).