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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

House of Lords Gender Recognition Act GRA - video - 19 Oct 2020

36 replies

FindTheTruth · 19/10/2020 15:59

GRA questions have been raised in the HOL this afternoon covering the census, hospitals, schools, Equality Act, Cancel Culture and sport. Lasts 12 minutes.

Video: parliamentlive.tv/event/index/93301826-ed65-4d26-aaaa-a372600ccaf7?in=13:34:52&out=13:46:08

Participants:
13:45:27
Baroness Grender (Liberal Democrat)
13:44:48
Baroness Berridge (Conservative)
13:44:10
Baroness Wilcox (Conservative)
13:43:53
Baroness Berridge (Conservative)
13:43:25
Baroness Grey-Thompson (Crossbench)
13:43:04
Baroness Berridge (Conservative)
13:42:13
Lord Herbert of South Downs (Conservative)
13:41:45
Baroness Berridge (Conservative)
13:41:02
Baroness Barker (Liberal Democrat)
13:40:27
Baroness Berridge (Conservative)
13:39:30
Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne (Conservative)
13:38:58
Baroness Berridge (Conservative)
13:38:12
Lord Cashman (Non-affiliated)
13:37:24
Baroness Berridge (Conservative)
13:36:48
Lord Triesman (Labour)
13:36:20
Baroness Berridge (Conservative)

OP posts:
SirSamuelVimes · 19/10/2020 16:00

Placemarking to watch later. Thanks op.

FindTheTruth · 19/10/2020 16:07

Lord Hunt raised the GRA open question today

13:35 Lord Hunt - in the interaction between the EA and GRA, those most affected - women and transgender people - should have freedom to speak. Intimidation and no platforming are not acceptable. Will the Gov reiterate the importance of single sex spaces covered by the EA and make it clear to public bodies that it's not acceptable to insist on gender neutral services, at the expense of providing women only safe spaces in refuge and rape crisis centres.

OP posts:
FindTheTruth · 19/10/2020 16:22

Lord Triesman (Labour)
13:36:20

Q: Will Gov stick to the statutory definitions required to collect data for sex discrimination and will guide ACAS to do so. Since gender identification would not provide reliable data for statistical analysis purposes needed to understand historical patterns. What guidance will Gov give for clarity on data - legislation. Given comparable difficulty for gender relying on self id , will gov advise NHS on the specific rights of women who do not have male bodies to access single sex wards and medical facilities?

Baroness Berridge (Conservative)
13:36:48

A: NHS is a public body. under EQ single sex wards can be provided and there is specific NHS guidance that transgender people should be accommodated according to their presentation but that the decisions should be in the best interests of patients and we leave it to front line clinicians to make those decisions.

OP posts:
MichelleofzeResistance · 19/10/2020 16:28

single sex wards can be provided and there is specific NHS guidance that transgender people should be accommodated according to their presentation

Yes, that states two totally incompatible things existing together, we know this. So the solution?

but that the decisions should be in the best interests of patients

Which patients?

and we leave it to front line clinicians to make those decisions.

Total cop out.

Angry

The question was: will gov advise NHS on the specific rights of women who do not have male bodies to access single sex wards and medical facilities?

The answer basically is: No.

Kaiserin · 19/10/2020 16:32

Good to hear

TheQuietWoman · 19/10/2020 16:40

Women who do not have male bodies.🥴

yourhairiswinterfire · 19/10/2020 16:43

@TheQuietWoman

Women who do not have male bodies.🥴
Transwomen are women, and actual women are merely non men. Nice to know.
TheQuietWoman · 19/10/2020 16:48

It would be laughable if it wasn't so damn insulting. And I see Cashman has reared his head.

RedDogsBeg · 19/10/2020 17:02

Shows exactly why we need recourse to the Courts and boy are they hung up on where the funding for Court cases comes from.

It really is insulting.

Cascade220 · 19/10/2020 17:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Cascade220 · 19/10/2020 17:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

yourhairiswinterfire · 19/10/2020 18:17

Yes, there are a lot of people who have a massive problem with people (mainly women) taking legal action, isn't there? You can see the donations on the crowdfunding page and add it all up ffs, not hard.

The Ann Sinnott crowd funder ruffled some feathers. People 'felt sick' at how quickly it raised money. Why? She's asking for the law to be correctly and clearly stated-what's worrying or sickening about that?

Cascade220 · 19/10/2020 18:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LangClegsInSpace · 19/10/2020 19:19

We are now focusing on digitising and streamlining the process, and reducing the fee. We hope these changes will make the process less bureaucratic for transgender people. At this stage, we are not proposing further legislative guidance, but we will keep this under review.

We need to keep the pressure on for new legislative guidance. Ann Sinnott's JR is extremely important.

Three cheers for Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)

The Hansard record is not accurate for Baroness Berridge's response.

Hansard: Yes, the Equality Act has an exemption, so that single-sex spaces can be provided and, where justified, somebody can be refused access to that space.

What I heard her say: Yes indeed, the Equality Act has an exemption so that single sex spaces can be provided and actually, where it is justified, someone can be refused access - where it is justified to that space.

She strongly emphasised that the single sex exceptions are to be justified for the space and not for the individual trans person who would like access. This helps dispel any lingering confusion about 'case by case' caused by EHRC guidance. The fact that there is still so much lingering confusion shows that we need new statutory guidance that accurately reflects the law.

LangClegsInSpace · 19/10/2020 19:47

Three cheers for Lord Triesman (Lab)

Berridge: My Lords, as I have outlined, the NHS, as a public body, knows that it is the Equality Act that outlines its provision of services, and so single-sex wards can be provided. There is specific NHS guidance that, at present, states that transgender people should be accommodated according to their presentation but that decisions need to be made in the best interests of patients. We leave it to front-line clinicians, who are aware of the circumstances on their wards and in their hospitals, to make those decisions. (my bolds, obvs.)

The message I take from this is that any judicial review must be requested against NHS bodies and not against central government. Fair enough. Was the single sex wards issue Andy Burnham's fault or am I misremembering?

Melroses · 19/10/2020 20:22

We need to keep the pressure on for new legislative guidance. Ann Sinnott's JR is extremely important.

I know where my tenner is going. Wink

Melroses · 19/10/2020 20:25

When the "Abolishing Mixed Sex Wards" Policy was introduced in 2010 by the Health Secretary Andrew Lansley, it was heralded with:
"It should be more than an expectation, it should be a requirement that patients who are admitted should be admitted to single-sex accommodation”
Andrew Lansley said “Patients should not suffer the indignity of being cared for in mixed-sex accommodation."
Except.

Whilst the public were told by the Government that wards would be segregated by SEX, the NHS Information Standards Team were told to segregate wards by self-declared GENDER. Privately. Without telling people.

From Barraker's thread.

LangClegsInSpace · 19/10/2020 21:34

@Melroses

When the "Abolishing Mixed Sex Wards" Policy was introduced in 2010 by the Health Secretary Andrew Lansley, it was heralded with: "It should be more than an expectation, it should be a requirement that patients who are admitted should be admitted to single-sex accommodation” Andrew Lansley said “Patients should not suffer the indignity of being cared for in mixed-sex accommodation." Except.

Whilst the public were told by the Government that wards would be segregated by SEX, the NHS Information Standards Team were told to segregate wards by self-declared GENDER. Privately. Without telling people.

From Barraker's thread.

Lansley. Mixing my Andrews up. Thank you Barracker for bringing this to light Flowers

Burnham also has form.

This is not a left/right issue and that is made very clear by this debate.

So up yours Baroness Barker, you know where you can stick your nasty assertions.

gardenbird48 · 20/10/2020 09:38

I've just watched this - thank you for the link. Well, on one side we have sensible questions re. EA 2010, single sex exemptions, conflict in guidance on sports and on the other we have dark insinuations about funding sources, Cashman's blah blah and another question from (I think) Barker that I really didn't understand but sounded unpleasant.

Is that really the best they have?

RozWatching · 20/10/2020 10:19

Given the comparable difficulty in defining gender if it relies solely on self-identity, will the Government commit to advising the NHS on the specific rights of women who do not have male bodies to access single-sex wards and medical facilities?

Well, cheers for that Lord Triesman. People formerly known as women are "women who do not have male bodies". Was he being mischievous? Either way it shows where we are today thanks to the GRA.

Tanith · 20/10/2020 10:22

You need to donate quickly to Ann Sinnott's crowdfunder if you're going to.
It finishes very soon and still needs to get to its target.

Cascade220 · 20/10/2020 10:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RozWatching · 20/10/2020 10:56

@gardenbird48

I've just watched this - thank you for the link. Well, on one side we have sensible questions re. EA 2010, single sex exemptions, conflict in guidance on sports and on the other we have dark insinuations about funding sources, Cashman's blah blah and another question from (I think) Barker that I really didn't understand but sounded unpleasant.

Is that really the best they have?

Yes, quite. Was Baroness Hunt not there? She could have contributed her usual "women get raped anyway".

I love the idea that ordinary women must be getting money from somewhere if their opinion doesn't align with certain members of the House of Lords Hmm
Sounds like projection to me.

gardenbird48 · 20/10/2020 13:23

I love the idea that ordinary women must be getting money from somewhere if their opinion doesn't align with certain members of the House of Lords hmm
Sounds like projection to me.

Especially when you consider that their side has funding from many major blue chip companies, pharmaceutical/medical companies (via Arcus), our own government - many railway companies, police forces etc etc. If anyone wants to mutter about funding I think it should be us women's rights peeps. It would be interesting to have that all laid out in one go - a multi-million £ industry?? It would make our reported £600k look rather puny.

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