Stonewall don't believe in same-sex attraction.

[AntsInPenzance]

From their glossary:

HOMOSEXUAL
This might be considered a more medical term used to describe someone who has a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards someone of the same gender. The term ‘gay’ is now more generally used.

[TyroBurningDownTheCloset]

They do seem to, Errol, yeah.

My objection to that is that they're effectively divvying up the world into "boring cishet vanilla" and "everything else" and positioning the two in a hierarchy to claim oppressed status.

Which is bollocks, cos that umbrella term might cover homosexuals, but it also covers eg straight blokes with perverse sexual appetites, who in fact form the dominant class in terms of sex and sexuality as an axis of oppression.

Plus it's a bit binary; all about defining yourself as the Other.

[WeeBisom]

There’s also a lot of controversy about what bisexual means, and some think that bisexual is offensive because it connotes there are only two sexes. My local lgbtq group has got rid of bisexual meet ups and replaced it with “queer” meetings. There’s now great confusion about what bisexual means. Some say it’s attraction to your own gender and any other gender. Some say it’s attraction to 2 or more genders. And some say it’s attraction to all genders , or to people regardless of gender. But it’s now seen as exclusionary to say that it means attracted to male and females. And if we look at stonewall they have fully adopted this:” Bi is an umbrella term used to describe a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards more than one gender.”

This is bizarre though. If we agree with gender theory there are literally thousands of genders. So wouldn’t that make most people bisexual? I also don’t understand how I’m supposed to be attracted to a gender, it being a personal and subjective feeling.

[highame]

bi means two but then if 2 + 2 can sometimes equals 5, there's a shed load of shit in where all of this is going. I'm looking forward to the knots everyone ties themselves in and how offensive it's all going to become (instead of the lovely equal world as envisaged).

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

How can they campaign against homophobia when, according to them, it doesn't exist.

According to the NI hate crime legislation, homophobia includes transphobia

[TyroBurningDownTheCloset]

I also don’t understand how I’m supposed to be attracted to a gender, it being a personal and subjective feeling.

Agreed; being attracted to a particular type of gender identity sounds a bit of an impossibility (though I'm going to try to make sense of it in the next paragraph). But it's perfectly possible to be attracted to either gender-conforming or gender-non-conforming people - some lesbians only go for butches, some for femmes, some for an androgynous look, and some aren't fussed either way; and there are plenty of straight women who only fancy men who do the stereotypical-masculine thing of short hair and trousers, and aren't remotely attracted to men in floral dresses and eyeliner.

The sense I can find in there is: we have this model of attraction that puts the physical body first and foremost, and assumes that attraction to the body comes first. For some people, this may be true; for others it's not the case, and the determining factor is effectively personality.

But then they go and muddle it all up with absolute batshittery like: bisexual is offensive because it connotes there are only two sexes and the underlying valid point - that we are forcing everyone into a model of sexuality based on the experience of the typical heterosexual male - is lost amongst the bickering.

FWIW my best mate is bisexual and gets proper pissy whenever anyone tries to tell her she's pan, or queer, or anything else. She's happy with bi and feels it describes her proclivities perfectly well, and doesn't want to be forcibly reidentified. And she doesn't fancy woks either.

[Eketahuna]

Bi: "I don't care what sex you are" vs
Pan: "I don't care what sex you think you are".

[Datun]

You can't campaign for equality about something where no one recognises what it is you are supposed to be gaining equality for.

I couldn't care less if there is a word for a person who is attracted to personalities irrespective of sex.

As long as you don't go taking funds for, or are pretending you are campaigning on behalf of, people whose sexual orientation is based on sex.

[TyroBurningDownTheCloset]

According to the NI hate crime legislation, homophobia includes transphobia

If we're using a sensible, reality-based definition of transphobia then this makes sense - hatred of feminine-presenting males is rooted in homophobia (which is rooted in misogyny).

It's only under Topsy-Turvy World rules that it's contradictory, because under TTW rules is transphobic to refuse to indulge others' internalised homophobia.

[Vermeil]

I’ve met a few pansexual people. As soon as I meet one who isn’t just a heterosexual trying to be special and interesting, I’ll let you know. 😄

[ChakaDakotaRegina]

It’s all becoming a bit Vague-sexual. Like we’re being told it’s ok to love anyone but it’s not ok to specify and exclude anyone.

Not just that you could have sex with anyone, but also somehow that you should (Because be cool, hurt feelings etc).

[nauticant]

it’s not ok to ... exclude anyone

Bingo. And where "anyone" is "men".

[TyroBurningDownTheCloset]

Oh, now, that's not quite fair - certain TRAs have ever so graciously deigned to permit us a temporary reprieve from being sexually available to men if we can demonstrate to their satisfaction that our dick-aversion is acquired through trauma and we are willing to undergo corrective therapy to recalibrate us for dick-worship.

Fortunately for me, I've already racked up the trauma points and the NHS is proving bloody useless at fixing the resulting psychological mess, so I'm in the clear. CSA-survivors' privilege rocks.

[NRatched]

Yup, been this way for a while. Stonewall have officially decided its bigoted to actually be gay. How progressive

People are not attracted to those of the same sex, how ridiculous, gay men are attracted to people who are masculine. Who can be male or female, its the stereotypes that matter, not the sex!

Ditto lesbians. Though given lesbians have spent the past few years being berated for not 'just giving cock a go' (unless they have past trauma, in which case they have a pass for now but should work to 'fix this' ASAP or else they are using trauma as an excuse to exclude penises from their sex life which is WRONG) this is no surprise to anyone. Lesbians should not be vagina fetishists, this is bigoted and wrong. Again, lesbians should be attracted to anyone who is feminine. Screw butches, they are actually men anyway as they prefer masculine stuff

Bisexual people do not exist at all. Nothing to see here. Naming oneself bisexual is clearly a bigoted attempt to say there are two disctinct sexes, which is offensive. People who formally 'identified' as bi, are not pansexual. And should never say no to anyone for any reason as you must be attaracted to everyone else bigot.

Heterosexual also therefor means the following
A masculine person who is attracted to feminine people, or vice versa. This can be a masculine person with a penis, attracted to a feminine person with a penis. Or non people with penises. Though those people without penises really don't matter in any sense. Unless it is for people with penises to have sex with, then they matter only for that purpose.

[NRatched]

*
People who formally 'identified' as bi, are noW pansexual.

[nepeta]

Trying to make sense of the definitions when sexuality is nailed to either gender identity or gender presentation is impossible. I sometimes try to think this through when I can't sleep and I always end up with a contradiction. The thing simply does not work and is completely driven by the desire to be kind and inclusive.

For instance, if one's sexual orientation is based on how masculine or feminine someone 'performs' then how do we explain butch Lesbians? And then there is the whole mess about how someone is supposed to feel sexually when a partner transitions. Does the transitioned partner still sexually appeal or not? It seems that trans ideology argues both sides of that.

[NRatched]

For instance, if one's sexual orientation is based on how masculine or feminine someone 'performs' then how do we explain butch Lesbians?
Butch lesbians are clearly just trying to attract gay men. They cannot possibly be attracted to feminine people who fancy feminine people else they would be feminine instead of masculine. Duh!

[MichelleofzeResistance]

I got the impression that a lot of younger lesbians (along with anyone else who wants to) use 'queer' nowadays?

This is as if you are female and declare yourself to be a lesbian, you are scolded or worse for bigotry and implying that you might actually have a blanket policy of excluding male people from your body regardless of how they self identify. Which is unacceptable, even if you are homosexual. 'Queer' is the good girl term which makes no such statement of a female having boundaries that male people may not find favourable.

If however you are male and declare yourself to be a lesbian, this is cause for much support and approval, and is obviously absolutely fine. As is stating an exclusive sexual attraction to biologically female people.

It's appalling misogyny, but then it all is. All of it is.

[Jericoo]

Unbelievable... Who could imagine things would regress this much in the space of a few years.

[FloralBunting]

This has been the direction of travel for a long time, though.

I think it started with the increasing acceptance of LGB orientation. As a demonstration of open-mindedness, people started talking about how you could be attracted to the person. Obviously this was an overcompensation based in a homophobic squeamishness about people of the same sex having sex with each other. But I think it was probably well meant in it's genesis.

And obviously, as often happens with well meant things, it became something else, and eventually become co-opted to actually damage the very people it was likely intended to show acceptance of, by becoming the idea that physical sex is irrelevant and you are only actually attracted to the inner essence of someone else. There's a video somewhere of a trans person at a trans pride event saying that transgender means there's no such thing as homosexuality.

Consequences like ripples.

[nepeta]

@MichelleofzeResistance

I got the impression that a lot of younger lesbians (along with anyone else who wants to) use 'queer' nowadays?

This is as if you are female and declare yourself to be a lesbian, you are scolded or worse for bigotry and implying that you might actually have a blanket policy of excluding male people from your body regardless of how they self identify. Which is unacceptable, even if you are homosexual. 'Queer' is the good girl term which makes no such statement of a female having boundaries that male people may not find favourable.

If however you are male and declare yourself to be a lesbian, this is cause for much support and approval, and is obviously absolutely fine. As is stating an exclusive sexual attraction to biologically female people.

It's appalling misogyny, but then it all is. All of it is.

Thank you for making those last two paragraphs so clear!

I have seen so much sexism in the trans ideology, from the erasure of only the female sex but not the male sex via the conversion of more female than male toilets into mixed sex ones, to the fact that trans women take leadership roles among women while trans men melt into the background among men, but I never noticed that bit!

[NRatched]

Oh yes

Lesbians are not allowed to be attracted to only female people because bigot. A lesbian with 'trauma' is allowed a pass for a short period of time, but she should spend this time 'getting over' the trauma, if not, she is just being bigoted and mean and doesn't care about overcoming the aversion to penis ASAP so she can become more inclusive and start to sleep with people who have penises, as she should have all along. A female penis is not the same as a male penis, they do not feel the same, nor act the same. Every person with a penis is different, as is their penis. You have to try each one individually before writing them off, and even then, a no might be nasty and bigoted, depending on the reason for saying no. Generally speaking, you should be as 'inclusive' as possible with your sexual partners. Otherwise terf.

However

'Trans lesbians' are allowed to be only attracted to the female sex because a penis on a partner might trigger their dysphoria.

Much progress. For sure.

Stonewall not only support this nonsense. They actively promote it. And appear to be front and centre in labelling lesbians who will not consider male people as sexual partners as 'terfs' and thus people who should be abused relentlessly.

[NRatched]

Should maybe clarify here just incase, I do know that this is transactivist rhetoric. And that no, not all transpeople think that way^

Its specifically TRA types.

Infact, it appears transsexual people are very much against the above thinking, and agree with feminists that it is homophpbic, misogynistic, vile, rape culture nonsense.

[EdgeOfACoin]

It's interesting. Back when I was at uni (early noughties) there was a popular poster that used to be wheeled out at various events. It was of two women lying on a bed and the slogan was something like 'love is about people not gender'.

At the time I thought it was an odd slogan, because I thought it went against the idea of homosexuality being something innate. I wondered what would happen if one of the women in the picture fell in love with a person who was a man, not a woman.

Back then the idea that someone could 'choose' their sexuality was deeply unfashionable. There was still a lot of talk about the existence of a 'gay gene', although I've not heard that theory mooted for ages.

Anyway, I just find it curious. Perhaps that poster was sowing the seeds for what we see today.

[yourhairiswinterfire]

A lesbian with 'trauma' is allowed a pass for a short period of time, but she should spend this time 'getting over' the trauma, if not, she is just being bigoted and mean and doesn't care about overcoming the aversion to penis ASAP

Therapy as one possible avenue for someone questioning their gender = conversion therapy.

Therapy to make a lesbian love dick = A-OK 👌

[NRatched]

@yourhairiswinterfire

A lesbian with 'trauma' is allowed a pass for a short period of time, but she should spend this time 'getting over' the trauma, if not, she is just being bigoted and mean and doesn't care about overcoming the aversion to penis ASAP

Therapy as one possible avenue for someone questioning their gender = conversion therapy.

Therapy to make a lesbian love dick = A-OK 👌

Quite.

This aspect of the ideology genuinely makes me feel sick.

When I first found out what was happening to lesbians, I honestly thought that it must be a huge exagerration or someone just taking the mick out of me. But no. It was actually worse than I thought