Stonewall don't believe in same-sex attraction.

[AntsInPenzance]

From their glossary:

HOMOSEXUAL
This might be considered a more medical term used to describe someone who has a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards someone of the same gender. The term ‘gay’ is now more generally used.

[IwishNothingButTheBestForYou2]

Oh yes, and if the menz don't like wanking to that then they are transphobic monsters..

HAHAHAHAHA...!

[TheAugury]

So two male born 'women' with penises (penii?) giving each other blow jobs is lesbian porn is it?

[IwishNothingButTheBestForYou2]

Bloody brilliant post michelle. My favourite bit:

.... lesbians just haven't experienced my penis yet, etc etc etc. 21st century, just the same as the previous 20 and the BC ones that went before it.

I love it here. xx

[MichelleofzeResistance]

telling LGB people to get therapy to overcome it

Oh, only female ones. The male ones are fine.

It's sexism. Which has become the not only ok but downright fashionable, trendy and cool way to have a group you can get as openly prejudiced about as you like without anyone who matters criticising you. The LGB+ bit just gives it the veneer to avoid it looking too obviously like male people enforcing that female people don't own their bodies or the right to withhold said bodies from males (see: gatekeeping your vagina, this is a thing) which is just the 21st version of marital rape is ok, women as property, men have needs and women don't understand this, lesbians just haven't experienced my penis yet, etc etc etc. 21st century, just the same as the previous 20 and the BC ones that went before it.

[yourhairiswinterfire]

@FloralBunting

Yup. I've been through the actual full treatment conversion therapy. Not hard at all to recognize the same schtick, even if it's draped in a rainbow flag this time.

That's awful Floral, I'm so sorry you were put through that.

It's horrifying seeing attitudes I'd hoped were long dead creeping back in. That being gay/lesbian is a choice, perverted, telling LGB people to get therapy to overcome it. I can't believe that it's actually coming from the "community" this time and no one's saying shit about it.

2020 and this is what 'progress' looks like

[ChakaDakotaRegina]

You can label yourself like a Starbucks coffee order but you can’t describe what you want. We’re back to ‘the love that dare not speak its name’ somehow.
Stonewall is such a disappointment (and I’m one of the few people left that doesn’t fall under the umbrella.)

[FloralBunting]

Yup. I've been through the actual full treatment conversion therapy. Not hard at all to recognize the same schtick, even if it's draped in a rainbow flag this time.

[NRatched]

@yourhairiswinterfire

A lesbian with 'trauma' is allowed a pass for a short period of time, but she should spend this time 'getting over' the trauma, if not, she is just being bigoted and mean and doesn't care about overcoming the aversion to penis ASAP

Therapy as one possible avenue for someone questioning their gender = conversion therapy.

Therapy to make a lesbian love dick = A-OK 👌

Quite.

This aspect of the ideology genuinely makes me feel sick.

When I first found out what was happening to lesbians, I honestly thought that it must be a huge exagerration or someone just taking the mick out of me. But no. It was actually worse than I thought

[yourhairiswinterfire]

A lesbian with 'trauma' is allowed a pass for a short period of time, but she should spend this time 'getting over' the trauma, if not, she is just being bigoted and mean and doesn't care about overcoming the aversion to penis ASAP

Therapy as one possible avenue for someone questioning their gender = conversion therapy.

Therapy to make a lesbian love dick = A-OK 👌

[EdgeOfACoin]

It's interesting. Back when I was at uni (early noughties) there was a popular poster that used to be wheeled out at various events. It was of two women lying on a bed and the slogan was something like 'love is about people not gender'.

At the time I thought it was an odd slogan, because I thought it went against the idea of homosexuality being something innate. I wondered what would happen if one of the women in the picture fell in love with a person who was a man, not a woman.

Back then the idea that someone could 'choose' their sexuality was deeply unfashionable. There was still a lot of talk about the existence of a 'gay gene', although I've not heard that theory mooted for ages.

Anyway, I just find it curious. Perhaps that poster was sowing the seeds for what we see today.

[NRatched]

Should maybe clarify here just incase, I do know that this is transactivist rhetoric. And that no, not all transpeople think that way^

Its specifically TRA types.

Infact, it appears transsexual people are very much against the above thinking, and agree with feminists that it is homophpbic, misogynistic, vile, rape culture nonsense.

[NRatched]

Oh yes

Lesbians are not allowed to be attracted to only female people because bigot. A lesbian with 'trauma' is allowed a pass for a short period of time, but she should spend this time 'getting over' the trauma, if not, she is just being bigoted and mean and doesn't care about overcoming the aversion to penis ASAP so she can become more inclusive and start to sleep with people who have penises, as she should have all along. A female penis is not the same as a male penis, they do not feel the same, nor act the same. Every person with a penis is different, as is their penis. You have to try each one individually before writing them off, and even then, a no might be nasty and bigoted, depending on the reason for saying no. Generally speaking, you should be as 'inclusive' as possible with your sexual partners. Otherwise terf.

However

'Trans lesbians' are allowed to be only attracted to the female sex because a penis on a partner might trigger their dysphoria.

Much progress. For sure.

Stonewall not only support this nonsense. They actively promote it. And appear to be front and centre in labelling lesbians who will not consider male people as sexual partners as 'terfs' and thus people who should be abused relentlessly.

[nepeta]

@MichelleofzeResistance

I got the impression that a lot of younger lesbians (along with anyone else who wants to) use 'queer' nowadays?

This is as if you are female and declare yourself to be a lesbian, you are scolded or worse for bigotry and implying that you might actually have a blanket policy of excluding male people from your body regardless of how they self identify. Which is unacceptable, even if you are homosexual. 'Queer' is the good girl term which makes no such statement of a female having boundaries that male people may not find favourable.

If however you are male and declare yourself to be a lesbian, this is cause for much support and approval, and is obviously absolutely fine. As is stating an exclusive sexual attraction to biologically female people.

It's appalling misogyny, but then it all is. All of it is.

Thank you for making those last two paragraphs so clear!

I have seen so much sexism in the trans ideology, from the erasure of only the female sex but not the male sex via the conversion of more female than male toilets into mixed sex ones, to the fact that trans women take leadership roles among women while trans men melt into the background among men, but I never noticed that bit!

[FloralBunting]

This has been the direction of travel for a long time, though.

I think it started with the increasing acceptance of LGB orientation. As a demonstration of open-mindedness, people started talking about how you could be attracted to the person. Obviously this was an overcompensation based in a homophobic squeamishness about people of the same sex having sex with each other. But I think it was probably well meant in it's genesis.

And obviously, as often happens with well meant things, it became something else, and eventually become co-opted to actually damage the very people it was likely intended to show acceptance of, by becoming the idea that physical sex is irrelevant and you are only actually attracted to the inner essence of someone else. There's a video somewhere of a trans person at a trans pride event saying that transgender means there's no such thing as homosexuality.

Consequences like ripples.

[Jericoo]

Unbelievable... Who could imagine things would regress this much in the space of a few years.

[MichelleofzeResistance]

I got the impression that a lot of younger lesbians (along with anyone else who wants to) use 'queer' nowadays?

This is as if you are female and declare yourself to be a lesbian, you are scolded or worse for bigotry and implying that you might actually have a blanket policy of excluding male people from your body regardless of how they self identify. Which is unacceptable, even if you are homosexual. 'Queer' is the good girl term which makes no such statement of a female having boundaries that male people may not find favourable.

If however you are male and declare yourself to be a lesbian, this is cause for much support and approval, and is obviously absolutely fine. As is stating an exclusive sexual attraction to biologically female people.

It's appalling misogyny, but then it all is. All of it is.

[NRatched]

For instance, if one's sexual orientation is based on how masculine or feminine someone 'performs' then how do we explain butch Lesbians?
Butch lesbians are clearly just trying to attract gay men. They cannot possibly be attracted to feminine people who fancy feminine people else they would be feminine instead of masculine. Duh!

[nepeta]

Trying to make sense of the definitions when sexuality is nailed to either gender identity or gender presentation is impossible. I sometimes try to think this through when I can't sleep and I always end up with a contradiction. The thing simply does not work and is completely driven by the desire to be kind and inclusive.

For instance, if one's sexual orientation is based on how masculine or feminine someone 'performs' then how do we explain butch Lesbians? And then there is the whole mess about how someone is supposed to feel sexually when a partner transitions. Does the transitioned partner still sexually appeal or not? It seems that trans ideology argues both sides of that.

[NRatched]

*
People who formally 'identified' as bi, are noW pansexual.

[NRatched]

Yup, been this way for a while. Stonewall have officially decided its bigoted to actually be gay. How progressive

People are not attracted to those of the same sex, how ridiculous, gay men are attracted to people who are masculine. Who can be male or female, its the stereotypes that matter, not the sex!

Ditto lesbians. Though given lesbians have spent the past few years being berated for not 'just giving cock a go' (unless they have past trauma, in which case they have a pass for now but should work to 'fix this' ASAP or else they are using trauma as an excuse to exclude penises from their sex life which is WRONG) this is no surprise to anyone. Lesbians should not be vagina fetishists, this is bigoted and wrong. Again, lesbians should be attracted to anyone who is feminine. Screw butches, they are actually men anyway as they prefer masculine stuff

Bisexual people do not exist at all. Nothing to see here. Naming oneself bisexual is clearly a bigoted attempt to say there are two disctinct sexes, which is offensive. People who formally 'identified' as bi, are not pansexual. And should never say no to anyone for any reason as you must be attaracted to everyone else bigot.

Heterosexual also therefor means the following
A masculine person who is attracted to feminine people, or vice versa. This can be a masculine person with a penis, attracted to a feminine person with a penis. Or non people with penises. Though those people without penises really don't matter in any sense. Unless it is for people with penises to have sex with, then they matter only for that purpose.

[TyroBurningDownTheCloset]

Oh, now, that's not quite fair - certain TRAs have ever so graciously deigned to permit us a temporary reprieve from being sexually available to men if we can demonstrate to their satisfaction that our dick-aversion is acquired through trauma and we are willing to undergo corrective therapy to recalibrate us for dick-worship.

Fortunately for me, I've already racked up the trauma points and the NHS is proving bloody useless at fixing the resulting psychological mess, so I'm in the clear. CSA-survivors' privilege rocks.

[nauticant]

it’s not ok to ... exclude anyone

Bingo. And where "anyone" is "men".

[ChakaDakotaRegina]

It’s all becoming a bit Vague-sexual. Like we’re being told it’s ok to love anyone but it’s not ok to specify and exclude anyone.

Not just that you could have sex with anyone, but also somehow that you should (Because be cool, hurt feelings etc).

[Vermeil]

I’ve met a few pansexual people. As soon as I meet one who isn’t just a heterosexual trying to be special and interesting, I’ll let you know. 😄

[TyroBurningDownTheCloset]

According to the NI hate crime legislation, homophobia includes transphobia

If we're using a sensible, reality-based definition of transphobia then this makes sense - hatred of feminine-presenting males is rooted in homophobia (which is rooted in misogyny).

It's only under Topsy-Turvy World rules that it's contradictory, because under TTW rules is transphobic to refuse to indulge others' internalised homophobia.