Janice Turner on Keira's Case in the Times today

[Igneococcus]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fba6fad2-0a6b-11eb-9ac5-9d2cf4a10c9f?shareToken=f626b4b291808447a875b53cd678f216

This was on FB. An American Dr who does a lot of sex change surgeries. Her feed is all about how proud she is about all the girls she has operated on. I found this post especially disturbing, as she's being so cutesy and using the popular music of BTS to promote it. Chilling. And profitable!

www.facebook.com/1914451722102925/posts/2772652612949494/?sfnsn=scwshmo

Marci Bowers, the transwoman surgeon responsible for the initial surgery that went wrong on Jazz Jennings, is now advocating for taking penises from dead men and sewing them onto women who identify as transgender.

Fucking hell.
That reminds me, didn't one of the UK trans charities demand funding to set up a medical training programme for trans people, by trans people, so they could have their own, separate healthcare system?

O/T But my last post reads ridiculously, with two in my minds. I need to stop posting stuff in my mind, in my mind.

@rogdmum

Some quotes from the talk above:

“ We are putting responsibility back on the family because we don’t have the evidence base to say ‘it’s these kids or it’s these kids’, or how we can pick out which kids should go forward and which kids shouldn’t. “

“The blocker is not a benign thing, it comes with - I don’t mean financial costs- it comes with downsides, especially around energy- if the young person has mood difficulties the blocker can sometimes make that worse- it also takes away those sex hormones, so that whole thing I was talking about, of being attracted to, developing crushes, when all your teens and peers are getting into relationships and developing social connections in that sense- that’ll be gone, well not totally gone, but that drive that interest whether it’s the opposite or same sex or whatever will be greatly reduced.

And we do worry, because we don’t have long term evidence for this. We do worry for what impact that might have on their identity because sexuality is such an important part of your identity,who you’re attracted to.”

“It can often mean you are signing up to be a patient for the rest of your life. In a way you taking what is essentially a physically healthy, you know it’s not got medical- you might say internally in terms of gender it’s not right- but medically it’s a healthy body and you’re introducing medication and making it dependent on medication, so ethically it’s really quite a complicated area, especially for children.”

“We’ve only started talking about fertility in the last 4 to 5 years. Before that, we were putting people down this pathway and actually they were coming back to us 15 years later and going, “oh, you never really said, you know And that’s what I mean about this being such a new area, cos we weren’t even doing hypothalamic blockers under the age of 16 until 5 years ago. We don’t have people who are 40 to 50 to see, you know, how’s your life been, were we right to intervene so early? We don’t know.”

Their brief Fenella Morris seems to be saying otherwise.

“This appears to be based on the assertion that puberty blockers have life-changing effects, particularly on sexuality – it seems to be said either in themselves or because they lead to a progression to cross-sex hormones,” Morris said. “These assertions are not accepted by the professionals within the Tavistock or the [NHS] trusts.”

Ah yes, Action for Trans Health.

You know someone's argument is absolutely fucked, and doing the usual job of twisting it self into a corkscrew, when the justification for consenting children, relies both on 12-year-olds happily having sex and simultaneously on 12-year-olds who will never have sex because they're asexual.

My ghast isn't often totally flabbered by these people and queer theory because I'm so used to them, but it was then. Stunned at how blatant that was.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

You know someone's argument is absolutely fucked, and doing the usual job of twisting it self into a corkscrew, when the justification for consenting children, relies both on 12-year-olds happily having sex and simultaneously on 12-year-olds who will never have sex because they're asexual.

My ghast isn't often totally flabbered by these people and queer theory because I'm so used to them, but it was then. Stunned at how blatant that was.

The only people they don't appear to be relying on are 12-year-olds who don't know whether they want to have sex or not because they have no idea what adult sex entails.

Funny that.

Yes, 12 year olds only come in two types: sexually experienced and otherworldly who will never have an interest in sex.

Future me is a brilliant turn of phrase and really sums up the issue for me.

Some of my friends achieved much the same effect by developing anorexia.

As trends in teenage girls' self-harm go, over the decades we have seen a wave of anorexia, then bulimia, then cutting, now I would say it's gender dysphoria.

I will keep saying it as best I can on MN without being deleted. The entire concept of 'trans' needs to be addresssed.

While people still take it at face value rather than correctly labelling it as actual things that it is the door will remain open for this entire shitshow to dance through.

I maintain that the GRA must be repealed and, furthermore, the protected characteristic in the EA 2010 needs to go as well because organisations are being forced to treat the legal fiction created by the GRA as a real thing, resulting in all the clashes with sex-based rights and exemptions.

To me, the whole argument about puberty blockers seems to stem from adult transitioners who wish they’d never had the ‘adverse effects’ of natal sex puberty - and overwhelmingly I have seen this vocalised by MTF trans people who wish they didn’t have Adam’s apples, ‘manly’ jawlines and shoulders etc. Not very much is ever said about/by FTM late transitioners, probably because there’s really no ‘adverse effect’ to going through female puberty and then transitioning later in life - you can still have a mastectomy and take testosterone that will change your body shape adequately to ‘pass’.

It all feels like it comes back to men getting what they want.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

the medical professionals involved in this are experimenting on children. they are doing this to children because they can

to see what will happen

to see if you can make a male look like a female if you pause puberty here and cut this off, and put silicone here

to see if you can make a female look like a male if you cut these off, flay this skin from here, use it build this appendage

I'm not normally one for hyperbole, but it's repellent, and it truly does fall into the 'playing god' category. some of them belong in prison in my opinion

I agree with this. I know a girl who has been given a double mastectomy at 17, she was put on cross sex hormones at 16. A very short time after expressing the desire to become a boy. Possibly lesbian, probable ASD. Heartbreaking.

Surgery is badly under regulated imo.

Destinysdaughter that FB link is horrendous! A Dr who calls herself a vagician and a tit wizard and mimes to rap to 'answer' serious questions about surgery? She's a bloody lunatic.

The video of Aiden Kelly on page 1 should prove to anyone that these gender doctors don't know what they're doing. To not even have considered fertility until a couple of years ago when patients started to return with issues is absolutely unbelievable.

And it's not like we haven't been saying all this for years (where we've been allowed) but somehow we're the baddies.

@NoSquirrels

To me, the whole argument about puberty blockers seems to stem from adult transitioners who wish they’d never had the ‘adverse effects’ of natal sex puberty - and overwhelmingly I have seen this vocalised by MTF trans people who wish they didn’t have Adam’s apples, ‘manly’ jawlines and shoulders etc. Not very much is ever said about/by FTM late transitioners, probably because there’s really no ‘adverse effect’ to going through female puberty and then transitioning later in life - you can still have a mastectomy and take testosterone that will change your body shape adequately to ‘pass’.

It all feels like it comes back to men getting what they want.

This is so true. How can anyone justify blockers or cross sex hormones or surgery for girls? Testosterone is apparently so powerful that a woman of any age can pass often without question after being on cross sex hormones for a time. Surely it makes no difference to the surgery?

I can’t see the argument for forging ahead with risky life changing treatment rather than watchful waiting plus whatever is needed psychological therapy wise for dysphoria and any co morbidities. It would be a much better use of funding to focus spending on CAMHS as many others have said before.

Girls really should not be put on the medical pathway, perhaps doctors might even like to apply the same thinking as they do to sterilisation and be that cautious regarding age!?

@Antibles

I will keep saying it as best I can on MN without being deleted. The entire concept of 'trans' needs to be addresssed.

While people still take it at face value rather than correctly labelling it as actual things that it is the door will remain open for this entire shitshow to dance through.

I maintain that the GRA must be repealed and, furthermore, the protected characteristic in the EA 2010 needs to go as well because organisations are being forced to treat the legal fiction created by the GRA as a real thing, resulting in all the clashes with sex-based rights and exemptions.

I agree. Maintaining the fiction that either humans can change sex, or that the female sex is sexist stereotypes, is so damaging.

Wanting to wear clothes of the opposite sex should be entirely acceptable. Saying it makes you change sex, shouldn't.

Making clothes interchangeable between men and women should go some way to reducing AGP too. I imagine the frisson would reduce once it became socially acceptable and commonplace. At least, that's what Grayson Perry says.

@Antibles

Some of my friends achieved much the same effect by developing anorexia.

As trends in teenage girls' self-harm go, over the decades we have seen a wave of anorexia, then bulimia, then cutting, now I would say it's gender dysphoria.

Absolutely. As a former teenage anorexic myself it just seems blindingly obvious to me.

@Antibles

I will keep saying it as best I can on MN without being deleted. The entire concept of 'trans' needs to be addresssed.

While people still take it at face value rather than correctly labelling it as actual things that it is the door will remain open for this entire shitshow to dance through.

I maintain that the GRA must be repealed and, furthermore, the protected characteristic in the EA 2010 needs to go as well because organisations are being forced to treat the legal fiction created by the GRA as a real thing, resulting in all the clashes with sex-based rights and exemptions.

Agree completely. Also agree re anorexia. My teenage dd knows no girls with eating disorders, but four or five with gender “issues” .

@nauticant

Yes, 12 year olds only come in two types: sexually experienced and otherworldly who will never have an interest in sex.

The cognitive dissonance displayed by our various institutions continues to amaze me. Even after the horrendous revelations of child abuse hidden by social services and the police because some children under 16 "were responsible" for their behaviour and that of much older predatory men, we now have members of the medical profession and their colleagues, saying that if children under 16 have sexual experience they are good judges of their future.

If the law is to be upheld, the first question should always be why is a child under 16 having sex? Please lets get back to proper child protection and stop allowing those who have an unhealthy interest in prepubescent children not only abuse them, but seek to allow them to continue in this state.

As trends in teenage girls' self-harm go, over the decades we have seen a wave of anorexia, then bulimia, then cutting, now I would say it's gender dysphoria

The amazing isn't it, that this new form of self harm is not only socially acceptable, but actively encouraged.

We need the children separating from the adults. We already know they are 2 very different groups with very different needs.

75% of the kids are female with ROGD around age 14.

Majority of the adults are now straight males over 25 with more than 50% being over 40.

These figures alone should make anyone ask questions as to why. Why aren't the numbers equal across both sexes and all ages.

There is a chapter in Inventing Transgender Children and Young People (a book which I think should be required reading by schools before they implement any teaching of gender issues) by Lisa Marchiano where she discusses 19th century hysteria vs anorexia vs gender distress/dysphoria. She quotes Elaine Showalter on contagions, “...for this condition to take root and spread as a contagion, Showalter identifies three main ingredients: ‘physician enthusiasts and theorists; unhappy, vulnerable patients; and supportive cultural environments.”

Exactly what we see happening with these “ROGD” adolescent girls. It’s absolutely heartbreaking that it is being championed in many schools and large parts of society and that the medical path is seen as the only form of treatment (as stated in court last week).

whatsnewpussyhat do you have a reference for where those stats come from? They'd be useful in a discussion I'm having right now but I know I'll be asked for citations!

ValancyRedfern

The female stats are from the Kiera/tavi case in last couple of days.

The male stats are from something I've read in last week or so but can't remember where. Looked through my screenshots but not there sorry.