Janice Turner on Keira's Case in the Times today

[Igneococcus]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fba6fad2-0a6b-11eb-9ac5-9d2cf4a10c9f?shareToken=f626b4b291808447a875b53cd678f216

I made a brash decision as a teenager trying to find confidence and happiness,” she said. “Except now the rest of my life will be negatively affected

Thank you for posting this Igneo. I honestly believe that there will come a time in the not too distant future when this period will be viewed as a reprehensible betrayal of children and teenagers by adults in positions of authority. The clinicians and 'charities' involved in this should be exposed to forensic scrutiny. I have been a Type 1 diabetic since I was 16. I wept when I was diagnosed because of the prospect of lifelong medication. But without insulin I would be dead. It makes me furious to think that teens struggling with identity issues are being set on a medical pathway for life when its irreversible consequences have not been made explicit. Keira should never have been put through this, but her courage in exposing this to public and legal view will hopefully prevent her story happening to other vulnerable young people.

@BlueBrush

I agree vermeil.

So much of that article gave me the chills, especially the blithe comment that many adults are happily asexual.

The QC argued that Tavistock patients think more about sex and identity than ordinary children, and an 11-year-old “who did not know what an orgasm or erection was would not be deemed capable of consent”.

Which implies that some of them do know? I mean properly know? Jesus - I know I was maybe a bit of a late starter but are they really saying that there are 11 year olds that are able to give consent on something that will affect their sex life to come?

It's one thing for kids that age to know where babies come from and how it all works, it's quite another for them to have extensive knowledge and understanding of sexuality and a weird attitude to it. I'd worry they'd been sexually abused or groomed if they were showing a really in-depth knowledge of sex and how it would apply to them. They aren't able to make a decision like that, and if they're that concerned about it in the first place I worry what exposure they've had to sexual things already. A lot of the Tavistock patients had been abused, the whistleblowers said as much in the Newsnight piece. Kids who've been abused will quite understandably blame and hate their own bodies or try to exert some control over them, why are they not taking this into account and getting them proper support and getting them away from their abuser?

@NotBadConsidering

Every time I read one of Janice’s articles, I’m amazed at how she manages to summarise such complex issues within her word count. No wonder she wins awards. 👏

Me too, JT is brilliant. And she was writing about this when almost no one else was. A brave proper journalist.

ABC posted this comment on that article. Totally sums up how I feel about this situation. A clear case where several organisations combine, in order to achieve a result which matches their agenda.

"This case has exposed the dangers of a medical echo chamber treating vulnerable children. The Tavistock is a Stonewall Champion required to follow the standards of care issued by WPATH ( a trans-advocacy organisation ), recommending children have ‘support’ from Mermaids, and inspected by the CQC ( a Stonewall Champion)."

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

the medical professionals involved in this are experimenting on children. they are doing this to children because they can

to see what will happen

to see if you can make a male look like a female if you pause puberty here and cut this off, and put silicone here

to see if you can make a female look like a male if you cut these off, flay this skin from here, use it build this appendage

I'm not normally one for hyperbole, but it's repellent, and it truly does fall into the 'playing god' category. some of them belong in prison in my opinion

Marci Bowers, the transwoman surgeon responsible for the initial surgery that went wrong on Jazz Jennings, is now advocating for taking penises from dead men and sewing them onto women who identify as transgender.

This procedure would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Do any of these people ever ask why so many young women want to be men?

This should not be led by surgeons who get millions of dollars to not look at why dead men's penises need to be grafted onto healthy women.

"This case has exposed the dangers of a medical echo chamber treating vulnerable children. The Tavistock is a Stonewall Champion required to follow the standards of care issued by WPATH ( a trans-advocacy organisation ), recommending children have ‘support’ from Mermaids, and inspected by the CQC ( a Stonewall Champion)."

Janice, if you're reading this ^^.

Janice is spot on, as usual. She really is a great journalist.

I read the twitter threads on the case late into the night, it astounded me, the arguments that some 10 year olds will be sexually active and such, I would have thought, if a child was sexually active at that age it would be an urgent referal to the safeguarding lead (who is IIRC, also taking the Tavi to court, due to purposely avoiding referring safeguarding concerns to her?!). Claiming very young children understand what they are doing in taking such drugs is just insane to me. Up til being about 14 I had no interest in anything at all sexual, I also was adamant I never wanted kids well into my twenties til something just kind of..switched as I grew up. I doubt that experience is rare. As a kid, if I had been told 'oh this could affect your fertility' it would have been a 'who the hell cares about that?!' kind of situation for me. As I understand it though, fertility issues are not really discussed, no matter how much the QC makes out they are centred. They say fertility is discussed at the cross sex hormone stage, however, given studies appear to say blockers almost always progress to cross sex hormones, surely fertility shuld be a huge part of even the blockers stage. I know some like to claim blockers are 100% reversible, and that may be true in theory, but in practise they appear anything but reversible. And definitely not harmless as claimed for a long time until recently.

Many of the arguments by the Tavi were deeply concerning to me. And it did seem te judges were pushing for actual answers, and getting none in ma ny places. Though it might just have been the way it was written up that made it come across that the judges were extremely critical of the defendants. Hard to note tone and such in written word of course.

Do any of these people ever ask why so many young women want to be men?

Exactly. Why is that question not being asked? What is going on in contemporary culture to make young girls want to change sex?

Also quite concerning, is that noone seems to have even considered if blockers also half vital brain development dring puberty that would generally help people become more at ease with their body. That would explain the near 0 desistance, as the child is stuck in the mindset permanently, until the cross sex hormones actually start. I remember about 3 years or so ago, that bloody sprout guy on twitter going down my neck as I pondered brain developmet being stunted by blockers. Apparently there had been many studies that proved this did not happen, I was clearly bigoted, the usual. Of course, none of such studies could ever be produced though, and it seems, no studies have even been done since, or are planned either! It just makes perfect sense, if all other aspects of puberty are blocked, why would the brain development be any different?

It would be a bit daft at this point to hazard a guess at what the judges might be thinking. We read twitter extracts, we are working on assumptions. I'm being hopeful, but am also aware of how little I know of the written evidence that has been put forward and I think there was quite a bit of it. Lots of it for Kiera & Mrs A was medical and from far afield experts - I am still being very, very cautious

sorry should have added

because I don't know what was accepted

Oh I wasn't trying to say they were on either side or whateve,r obviously they will weigh everything up..just did seem they were quite critical but as I said, could just be the way the tweets were presented.

Marci Bowers, the transwoman surgeon responsible for the initial surgery that went wrong on Jazz Jennings, is now advocating for taking penises from dead men and sewing them onto women who identify as transgender.

I hope to god thats fiction. I know, given datun posted it, its probably not. But this makes me feel sick to even contemplate.

@BlueBrush

That QC quote is spot on. Anyone who’s had major medical treatment will have come across specialists who seem to detach the patient from their condition, as though there isn’t an actual person attached to it. ☹️

@NRatched

Oh I wasn't trying to say they were on either side or whateve,r obviously they will weigh everything up..just did seem they were quite critical but as I said, could just be the way the tweets were presented.

Marci Bowers, the transwoman surgeon responsible for the initial surgery that went wrong on Jazz Jennings, is now advocating for taking penises from dead men and sewing them onto women who identify as transgender.

I hope to god thats fiction. I know, given datun posted it, its probably not. But this makes me feel sick to even contemplate.

It is sick.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4046739-Penis-transplant

For any of us who've been reading about this issue for years NRatched the argument that there's nothing to be concerned about in children having sex at an age many years below the age of consent is depressingly familiar.

You know someone's argument is absolutely fucked, and doing the usual job of twisting it self into a corkscrew, when the justification for consenting children, relies both on 12-year-olds happily having sex and simultaneously on 12-year-olds who will never have sex because they're asexual.

I hope to god thats fiction. I know, given datun posted it, its probably not. But this makes me feel sick to even contemplate.

It is fiction but is presented as fact, or achieveable fact if we wait only a little while, so that less outlandish interventions look tame in comparison. It's about shifting the Overton Window.

@NotBadConsidering

Every time I read one of Janice’s articles, I’m amazed at how she manages to summarise such complex issues within her word count. No wonder she wins awards. 👏

This!

So often I read her articles and think 'yes, yes this is what I was thinking in my confused and befuddled way'.

What's the evidence that many adults are 'happily asexual'?

If many adults are happy with lack of ability or urge to have sex, then why is there a market for viagra? Why so many 'cures' for low sex drive?

Where did they pluck that from?

@nauticant

I hope to god thats fiction. I know, given datun posted it, its probably not. But this makes me feel sick to even contemplate.

It is fiction but is presented as fact, or achieveable fact if we wait only a little while, so that less outlandish interventions look tame in comparison. It's about shifting the Overton Window.

Just to be clear, it's not fiction that Bowers is advocating for it. I agree it's still in fantasyland. But it's something that Bowers is advocating for.

Bowers is the leading surgeon for trans surgery.

The town where they practice gets called something like Sex Change Central.

This is Bowers thing.

I would sincerely hope that an ethics committee wouldn't even allow research. But given the money involved in this sort of surgery, I'm not holding my breath.

Thanks for the reminder of the Aiden Kelly talk rogdmum. I remember hearing it before, and being amazed that after everything he said, the conclusion WASN'T "so of course we don't recommend this, there's not enough evidence", but rather was - "there's all these concerns and unknowns, but we're doing it anyway".

@Datun

You know someone's argument is absolutely fucked, and doing the usual job of twisting it self into a corkscrew, when the justification for consenting children, relies both on 12-year-olds happily having sex and simultaneously on 12-year-olds who will never have sex because they're asexual.

Or, a 12 yo who would like at that point to become asexual because they're being abused.

Or, a 12 yo who would like at that point to become asexual because they're being abused.

Exactly.

No one should be relying on what a 12-year-old thinks of sex, at 12, to determine what happens for the remainder of their entire life. Their whole life!

@nauticant

I hope to god thats fiction. I know, given datun posted it, its probably not. But this makes me feel sick to even contemplate.

It is fiction but is presented as fact, or achieveable fact if we wait only a little while, so that less outlandish interventions look tame in comparison. It's about shifting the Overton Window.

Well in my mind the actual process is fiction. But I meant, that the surgeon was now advocating for that. Thats extremely cncerning in my mind.

Well in my mind the actual process is fiction. But I meant, that the surgeon was now advocating for that. Thats extremely cncerning in my mind.

The mindset seems so prevalent.

Surgeons in the US advocating to reduce the age of patients, endorsed by mermaids, the relentless profiling of surgery as 'vital healthcare', lobbying groups like Action for Trans Health fantasising that they want laws made where trans people can operate on one another, being taken seriously enough as a group to contribute to a government report.

The surgery is a massive part of the ideology, and so very many people advocate for it.

And there is a tremendous amount of money washing around in the US.

It's all very disturbing.