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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Royal Society of Biology - biological sex is transphobic

93 replies

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 09/10/2020 18:43

twitter.com/RoyalSocBio/status/1314556133051375618?s=19

Another arrogant young intern? Not a good look, anyway.

OP posts:
SapphoJones · 09/10/2020 23:30

Jesus wept. That reply sounds like it was written by a 13 year old Confused

ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings · 09/10/2020 23:56

Originally I thought that this was just about a patriarchal backlash to feminism, but more and more I've been thinking that's its worse than that. There's a reason that the rhetoric of activists seeking greater priviledges for Transwoman is so religious in nature. There's a reason that this same sort of religious language and framework has been pointed out in several other areas of the "social justice" movement. There's a reason that hundreds of these people tried to claim that 2+2 sometimes = 5. Not always, but sometimes, so that 2+2 has no set objectively correct answer. I think what we're really seeing here is a religious backlash against the actual enlightenment itself.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 10/10/2020 00:00

@TheCountessofFitzdotterel

Science is fucked. The Enlightenment was good while it lasted.
Yeah, it really looked like it was going somewhere, didn’t it?

We need David Attenborough to man up and wade in on the side of reality here. He’s a national treasure; he can take the flak.

C’mon Dave. Come out for JKR and sanity. Save our sciences.

Aesopfable · 10/10/2020 00:04

What's wrong with that? The answer is not "but clownfish".

To be fair she didn’t say she was just referring to humans or even mammals - biology does include clownfish, snails and apple trees

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 10/10/2020 00:05

I think what we're really seeing here is a religious backlash against the actual enlightenment itself.

Interesting idea, Grabthars. Maybe it is. Part of the decline of western civilisation.

Maybe this era has run its course and is heading into the void, as ancient civilisations did, and this attachment to quasi religious mass delusion is part of that process.

So near, and yet so far.

Wishingstarr · 10/10/2020 00:37

Except actual religion, say Catholicism believes in material reality, and faith amd reason, searching for objective and spiritual truth which should be in harmony, built and still runs hundreds of universities and hundreds of thousands of schools worldwide, also believes in evolution and had priests who began the field of genetics and came up with the theory of an expanding universe and The Big Bang. What's going on is more denying "meta-narratives" and reason itself. This comes from post-modern philosophy which spilled out into Queer theory. "Queering" everything seems to be about totally dismantling boundaries and denying biological categories and classification. All structure and organization is about power and control that must be dismantled. This includes logical and rational thinking itself.

AnotherLass · 10/10/2020 00:47

I never thought that this was just about misogyny. It is very clearly an attack on rationality, on science and on democracy. And it's really serious.

Remember that in the 1930s academics were some of the first to eagerly jump to defend Hitler.

Wishingstarr · 10/10/2020 01:38

I think so much is also as a result of smart phones and social media which is designed and built to be addictive and to manipulate opinion. This madness has intensified massively in the past 15 years since smart phones arrived.

Antibles · 10/10/2020 01:57

I never thought that this was just about misogyny. It is very clearly an attack on rationality, on science and on democracy. And it's really serious.

It's a power grab. It's always about power. For power's sake. Just as described in 1984.

ChattyLion · 10/10/2020 02:03

#biologylosingwomen.
Definitely feels like End Times approaching when the official home of biologists try to actively silence (female) biologists for referencing facts of biology. WTF?

I also don’t think we can assume that organisations tweeting the sexist, misogynistic, homophobic views of genderism are just the result of having kids in the Comms department though.

I mean, the unprofessional ‘BYE!‘ might be because of that... but the substance of this tweet shows that the climate in the RSB office is such that whoever it was, thought it was a good thing in the Society’s name, to try to silence a female biologist for saying something factual that they felt the RSB didn’t agree with politically. Hmm
And if you I look at the diversity policy of RSB, the tweeter wasn’t deviating from official policy actually: they weren’t doing anything wrong.

So whoever is in charge at this membership society, this tweet is just a small symptom of a serious failure of leadership vision and of organisational values clarification.

So in response to the excellent feedback they are currently receiving on Twitter- it’s absolutely not acceptable for RSB to say they’ve told off an inexperienced junior and taken them off the Twitter account, or that theIr account was hacked, or to make any other diversionary excuse.

This tweet evidences this membership body’s existing political organisational capture, and evidences active sexist and homophobic values in action at their office that are the natural consequence of that political stance they have already taken.

So the CEO and Chair need to write a public statement, which also goes to all their members, to defend enlightenment values, free speech and scientific enquiry, to commit to anti sexist and anti homophobic working in their own organisation (starting by reviewing their own diversity and equality policy!) and then they need to bloody well stick to those values in practice. This will be a major change.

Perhaps as a start, they could offer to invite WPUK or LAWS or another gender critical group in, to host a debate about the biological fact of sexual dimorphism and how scientific and research culture needs to regain it’s free speech and commit to how the RSB will support women/researchers to have that freedom? And RSB invite their female members to suggest other ongoing actions they can take? Could allow all members to contribute to reinstating sex in their policies? Could organisationally demand that Athena swan reasserts sex and not gender? (RSB are not the only scientists with this problem, clearly)

RSB have a whole diversity statement on their website though committing to inclusive ways of working, so all this shouldn’t be too much of a stretch...

Oh wait, they’ve been stonewashed:
‘The Royal Society of Biology is committed to ensuring that it is accessible to everyone regardless of gender, ethnic or national origin, nationality, disability, religion, sexual orientation, socio-economic background or age‘

So RSB won’t acknowledge biological sex, which is a fundamental, can’t get past it cultural problem they have created for themselves. Their commitment to women is already built on sand, despite talking about how they ‘have successfully used targeted recruitment initiatives and other means to improve low female representation within our Fellowship of 6.5% in 2007 to 21% in 2014. However, gender inequality is just one aspect of inclusion.’

Quote was taken from this page (scroll down)
www.rsb.org.uk/policy/policy-issues/equality-diversity

RSB need to understand that while they subscribe to ‘gender‘ that is a recipe for baked-in sex and sexual orientation inequality. (And for anti-science)

Anyway- plenty of organisations over the course of 2020 have shown that they can make values statements about lots of different social issues and work differently, so we need this one to start doing so about biological sex.

Who better to lead that type of change, than a membership organisation of scientists whose work depends on understanding that there are sex differences? Who have already signalled publicly that they want to be inclusive..

And that’s bloody great CheeryTree that your DH is cancelling his membership. The conversation he has with them about that will be really important. Often these attitudes are taken by non-membership organisations which can shrug off criticism, but surely those with a membership have to either be accountable to them, and stand by what they’ve said (which is incompatible with good science and inclusion so RSB can’t do that) OR they need to start a serious, publicly-conducted programme of cultural change.

Hope all members follow your DH’s suit, cancelling is personal choice obviously but engaging with RSB on this is key to reversing this entirely self-destructive political direction that RSB are going in.

Chattylion · 10/10/2020 02:13

Sorry for that massive long post.
I mean to say that members engaging with their membership organisations is key. This one is particularly important as it’s a chartered status awarding body.

Captured organisations do need sensible people to stay and help them shape a better way of working although (like the Labour Party and others) sometimes understandably that is asking too much of individual members, because the organisation has strayed too far from its original or advertised remit and values that attracted people to join in the first place. And inflicting loss of membership numbers and income is a powerful tool of protest.

There isn’t the option to set up an alternative to a royal charter society though, so given that structural singularity, it is imperative that RSB sorts themselves out one way or another.

EdgeOfACoin · 10/10/2020 06:31

Some utterly bizarre replies on that thread!

Discourse Elysium 2@PeeWinner
7h
People can literally change sexes through surgery and assigned male at birth people can get pregnant

I mean...what? Who is teaching these people??

EdgeOfACoin · 10/10/2020 06:32

^^ I should say that looks to me as though it was a genuine reply, not someone being sarcastic.

SmallPug · 10/10/2020 06:35

@ChattyLion would you consider emailing the RSB what you’ve written - seems like good feedback for them to receive!

PearPickingPorky · 10/10/2020 07:10

It feels like half the world is waking up...and the other half is doubling down.

This is exactly what it feels like.

I do think it's getting more difficult for the other side to maintain credibility though, and, Boy, are they having the mother of all public strops about that. Which helps.

sashh · 10/10/2020 07:31

I've emailed Events: [email protected]

Hi

I'd like some clarification on a tweet sent on behalf of the RSB. I enclose a summary of the exchange here.

Today is #iamabiologist day - some would say, the BEST day in #BiologyWeek! We'll be showcasing some amazing biologists and the work they do, so make sure to share your selfies by tagging us and using the hashtag so we can share it too!

#iamabiologist who knows that sex is determined at conception, observed at or before birth and is immutable. I also know that #BiologyIsntBigotry and that women are #AdultHumanFemales.

^Royal Society of Biology@RoyalSocBioReplying to@TriciaFrasman
Please take your transphobia out of our hashtag please. BYE^

Please can you confirm whether the RoyalSociety of Biology believes it is abusive (transphobic) to state that, in humans, sex is determined in utero and that it is bigotry? Or does the society believe adult human females are women?

At this point I'd like to take the opportunity to state that 'sex' is a protected characteristic in the Equality Act. The tweet replying to Tricia Frasman was not directed at me but was stated in a public forum, it is offensive to all women to call our existence 'transphobic'.
I look forward to hearing from you

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 10/10/2020 08:05

@EdgeOfACoin

Some utterly bizarre replies on that thread!

Discourse Elysium 2@PeeWinner
7h
People can literally change sexes through surgery and assigned male at birth people can get pregnant

I mean...what? Who is teaching these people??

The general level of scientific knowledge in the population, including the media, is pitiful. Last week, I saw an eminent lawyer (not the fox-clubber) insisting on Twitter that humans can change sex.

It really is quite frightening that people are this ignorant.

FairFriday · 10/10/2020 08:09

You can’t blame them. They are obviously 8 years old and believe in fairies and magic.

sashh · 10/10/2020 08:15

I got into a long (twitter) exchange about trans women not having periods. I even had a trans woman backing me up.

FairFriday · 10/10/2020 08:18

But but but - because, that’s why. Educate yourself! Bigot.
And blocked...

Oxyiz · 10/10/2020 08:24

I mean ... setting aside for a moment that the fucking Royal Society for Biology believes that biology isn't real (great! We can shut them down then!) ... that's just such a terrible tweet.

It's badly written and its not how twitter works - you don't get to own a hashtag. You can perhaps say you don't like being tagged in something but that's a twitter handle not a hashtag.

You also don't shut down things so stupidly. You use it as a chance to say your values instead.

FairFriday · 10/10/2020 08:27

I’m surprised it’s still up there. The manager must’ve seen it by now.

So often I see twitter feeds that are so different in tone and content from the business/organisations website and PR it’s like they don’t even know each other. ‘Give it to Alice, she’s young, she knows how this ‘ere social meedya thingy works’.

highame · 10/10/2020 09:08

Wishingstar All structure and organization is about power and control that must be dismantled. This includes logical and rational thinking itself.

The TU's are signed up and they're already half way there Grin.

TheElementsOfMedical · 10/10/2020 09:24

I'm a molecular biologist and I'm just ShockAngryShockAngryShockAngry If I was a member, I'd be cancelling!

ChattyLion · 10/10/2020 10:22

I can’t contact them for professional reasons I’m afraid, hence the thought on here.
I guess I could make up a name. Grin

Anyway it is offensive to all women to call our existence 'transphobic'

^ that puts this whole debate in a nutshell. Beautifully succinct!

If you’re contacting them, maybe worth saying that even if they did put a 12 year old in charge of their Twitter account, that’s not the point- Their tweeter only reflected RSB’s existing corporate equality and diversity policy which is ‘gender’ not ‘sex’. We couldn’t expect anyone from RSB to tweet otherwise with that policy.

It’s a ludicrous and dangerous position for a professional biologists association to get into, but they’ve done it to themselves and they need to sort that out.