Disappointed in dh female manager

[MrsKingfisher]

She's told dh that he can move tables and boxes etc 'because he's a man' dh is not impressed. It's also not even close to his job description.

I thought more women were over this type of stereotyping.

Of course it's wrong for jobs to be allocated based on stereotypes, but was his pay reduced? Was he harmed

You say that and the answer is no. But when a female employee is asked to do something like 'take minutes in a meeting - because she's better at it' or 'bake a cake - because she's a woman' that doesn't reduce pay or harm, but it does suddenly seem to discriminate against her, this isn't that much different. Just happens to be a man who's been asked based on him supposedly being better equipped.

Can you imagine if a car had been dropped off and he'd been asked to park it in a small space - because he's a man and can park better. I'm sure he'd have loved it but the women in the office would have been up in arms.

This is very poor work practice.

Either the objects are so heavy that an average woman would struggle to lift them. In which case a proper risk assessment needs to be made. All the people involved in heavy lifting need training, and possibly protective equipment and/or lifting equipment. Some of the men may have hidden medical conditions which makes heavy lifting dangerous, and forcing them to disclose these conditions in front of their colleagues is all kinds of wrongs.

If the objects are light enough that the average woman could pick them up with little effort, then the manager is clearly being sexist. This kind of behaviour can be detrimental both to men and women. The men are burdened with the tedious job, but maybe another manager passing by would notice them "pulling their weight", and they're the one who'll get remembered for promotion, etc.
And again there's the fact you can't just bundle individual employees into "averages" based on their sex. Even for light lifting, some people may have conditions which make the task unsuitable. Using sex as a shortcut for physical ability is very poor practice. Even if yes, on average, the men can lift more, and the women may be pregnant, etc. People in the workplace must be treated as individuals, not stereotypical aggregates. Anything else is discrimination.

He shouldn't so it just because he's a man. But I think it not being in his jd is a bit much. Surely we all have chipped in moving bits in the office or setting up a room for training or a conference?

Sure, she's a sexist and a bad manager.
I'm still not really seeing what relevance this has to feminism though. It just seems like a fairly banal instance of Women Do It Too - the flip side of the equally tedious NAMALT.

Men are stronger than women, and have very significantly more upper-body strength than women due to physiological differences between our sexed bodies. So it's fine for men to do more of the heavy lifting.

It is not comparable to making tea, because neither sex has a physical advantage in making tea.

It is not the same as being "asked to hold a baby, since you're a woman", as again, both sexes can equally well hold a baby. Gestating a baby, or breastfeeding a baby, on the other hand, requires female physiology. But men are just as capable of "holding" one.

It's about efficiency. Men can lift heavy things much more easily than women, so it makes sense to use the people who are best equipped for that job.

Similarly, women can be more suited to entering small, confined spaces than men, because we tend to be smaller and more flexible.

I can move a table occasionally. I can set up a church lunch moving several tables. I'd need to sit down after it, and be careful I don't hurt myself. The guy who usually sets up does it without effort. He still has plenty of energy for the rest of the day.

It's ridiculous to pretend the average bloke isn't significantly stronger. My sons were stronger than me, beat me in an arm wrestle, could lift more for longer, by the time they were about 13. DS2 is the same height as me, 5'6" ish. He's a slim, small man. He's so much stronger than me it's not funny.

I'm the only woman in my department, but I'm more capable of lifting things than my male colleagues with a history of back problems.

Manual lifting is occasionally part of my job. I have had training on how to do it safely. If we are asked to lift anything over 25kg, we should have assistance, be that a colleague or something mechanical (we have a range of trolleys and lifters available.) 25kg is not that heavy for an adult of average fitness, and thus there is no lifting work that I can't do that a man could do.

OP - would your DH have minded if she'd framed it as "you three are probably the strongest" ? Were all the men co-opted for the job or were any not and if so was there any obvious reason?

@LilyLongJohn that just reminded me of the time I had to move the boss' Audi as all the boys refused. Should have just asked me early doors.

This kind of thing is endemic. If we call it out it'll stop. Some women are happy to moody stuff and strong enough to do so. Why the manager couldn't have just asked for volunteers who knows!

I'm quite new to the feminism board, I didn't know this wouldn't be a topic for here or that the term lady was offensive, I'm sorry.

This is the usual pattern because humans are dimorphic.

There is a notable difference on average between the sexes but not so much that a woman who volunteers is likely to be unably to lift something any old bloke can. DW and I can lift about the same- more than the average office bloke.

Even if the objects were very heavy the manager should have been picking on fitness or willingness, not penisness.

As with the example of tea making, men are not inherently less capable of looking after a baby.

I suspect that on average men are much worse at looking after a baby. They tend on average to be worse at reading non-verbal signals an sexism means that they are musch less likely to have experience of childcare.

Still, in both scenarios it's relevant skills which are important and could equally come from someone of either sex.

@MrsKingfisher

I'm quite new to the feminism board, I didn't know this wouldn't be a topic for here or that the term lady was offensive, I'm sorry.

Don't apologise. It's a perfectly good point and a perfectly good discussion. I happen to disagree with you, but that's ok!

I'm quite new to the feminism board, I didn't know this wouldn't be a topic for here or that the term lady was offensive, I'm sorry.

It's a MN tradition that wherever and whatever you post about someone will tell you it should be on a different board and that you used the wrong word for something.

You still need someone to correct your grammar, someone to advise you to LTB and someone else to wildly misinterpret a post and start arguing with you- then you're a full MNer.

Sounds like your husband needs to man up op and stop complaining.

Yes this is a joke.

I am grateful to new poster MrsKingfisher for raising this topic and tangentially highlighting the need for a men's rights board.

I've managed workplaces where heavy lifting is involved that our guidelines were that there were minimum loads women could lift and minimum loads men could lift. The minimum for women was lower. We also had lower loads for minors, as there were staff of 16 and 17 years old. I actually had a young man complain about the sexism of having a higher minimum weight he could lift, though he retracted it once it was explained that men are actually inherently stronger.

We can't argue that women's sports need to be protected and kept solely for biological women if we don't recognise that the reasons for this also count in the rest of life too.

I should have wrote maximum instead of minimum every single time there.

^There are general guidelines - or maximum weights - for men and women. If applying these, no man should attempt to lift anything heavier than 25kg and a woman’s maximum limit is 16kg.
But it’s important to take into account other factors which can change the maximum safe weight - such as how high an object will need to be lifted.

If lifting above shoulder height (stocking high shelves for example) men should not lift items heavier than 10kg and women, 7kg – but this maximum weight drops yet again for objects that need to be held away from the body – 5kg for men and 3kg for women.^

www.workplacesafetyadvice.co.uk/guide-manual-handling-lifting-techniques.html#:~:text=General%20Guidelines%20for%20Lifting,woman's%20maximum%20limit%20is%2016kg.

I don't understand why he didn't just say 'I can't help due to a medical condition but I'm sure one of the others here can help you out' indicating the women in the room.

I'm afraid I have a very low opinion of this sort of whingeing from men, and double low opinion of tragic attempts to slur feminism with it.

Sure the manager was probably a bit wrong as it sounds like a "many hands make light work" scenario and everyone could have carried a few boxes; and yes it is annoying to be pulled away from your main job. But men (in general) are better and quicker at lifting and carrying stuff. I am small and have a dodgy pelvis and lower back post childbirth. I would absolutely muck in, in a scenario like this, but I would not be very good at it, I might have to take my work shoes off, and I wouldn't do as much as the men.

There are some men in my life (work life and private life) who automatically make a grab to take them from me when I am carrying large or heavy things, and my instinct is to say "no I'm fine". If / when they insist and take them anyway, we get where we are going much faster than we would have, and they don't appear to have suffered anything like the inconvenience I would have. It is notable that they are not at all the same men who are sexist in ways that are actually anti-women.

The "where's your feminism now?" whiners who hate to get off their arses and lift a finger for women are usually the ones who actually, deep down, think women should be serving men.

Even if the objects were very heavy the manager should have been picking on fitness or willingness, not penisness.

Yes (fitness, anyway - choosing by willingness can end up being quite unfair) - hence my question re whether she simply chose all the men or whether it was a subset. Was she simply being sexist, or in fact picking the 3 most able to do the task?
I'm assuming she had some idea of the relative size and strength of the people involved. It's certainly wrong to make blanket assumptions about people you don't know.

Because you're a man is a shit reason..

Because you're the strongest is a better reason.

The manager knows the people involved. If the man in question is 6'3 and a body builder and the alternative woman is 5'0 and 7 months pregnant is it sexist to ask the man to do it so the woman should be asked? To prove that men and women are equal?

When we need furniture shifting my DH bears the brunt of it as he's literally twice my size, 5 years younger, and I have a physical disability. I do my best with what I've got! But it's not as good as what he can do.

Mother nature's a bitch eh and a sexist one at that.

Although I was once asked to shift a load of office furniture when I was about 7 months pregnant, now I come to think of it, which is why that example probably came to mind!

Presumably the op will give a big round of applause for that manager and their lack of sexism.

I have to agree with a lot of what you say Sensless
In my previous job i was responsible for collecting post and deliveries, now I'm fairly strong for my size but since menopause its suprising how much its affected my physical strength. I would also haul water cooler bottles up a flight of stairs (because I'm stupid) and it would leave me breathless when we had big hulking blokes working in the office who felt it was below their pay grade.
I can remember trying to lug a heavy box into the office from a delivery guy who refused to do anymore than leave it on the doorstep, one of the shop floor guys came to collect it and picked it up as if there was nothing in it.
There are physical differences between the sexes and honestly in work situations not all jobs need a department meeting and contract written up to get done.