How do you deal with the loneliness?

[RadandMad]

I'm in the creative industry and recently joined an online group for other creatives. There's a post in there criticising JK Rowling with people talking about terfs and how awful they are and how hateful it is not to believe TWAW. These are intelligent, normal people who a few years ago I would have had a lot in common with.

It just hit me how far I am now from mainstream views since I started getting into GC feminism. I feel like I'm on another planet to these people, for all we have in common now. And I go through this endless cycle of asking myself, is it me? Is there something wrong with me for no longer being able to believe people literally can change sex, or no longer being blind to the clash of trans rights with women's rights?

I feel horribly lonely. Most of my friendships are conducted online, and I feel very isolated. But I can't see any way to put the genie back in the bottle and go back to thinking the way these people do. Just wondering how other people cope? How do you find other people you can interact with if you can't risk giving up your anonymity, or admitting what you really think?

I could have written the OP. My closest friend and I have always felt very similarly on most if not all issues. So this has thrown a bomb into our friendship. I think she assumed I felt TWAW and sent me a link to something. The ensuing argument has been in slow mo, and very devastating. In the end we agreed not to talk about it, and that seemed to work for a bit, but then it all came erupting to the surface again when the JKR stuff happened. It annoyed me that my friend felt comfortable posting lies on her Facebook, joining in with putting the boot and ultimately I was just shocked that she wouldn't concede it as an issue.. The single sex services, the sports, the anger and the hijacking from mras... We had another row, she told me she feels comfortable in what she believes and stop sending her links and news articles about it that are GC as she doesn't believe in it... We haven't spoken since, and she was like a sister to me.

So I definitely know some of how you feel, it's awful and feels lonely. But I'm now doing as another poster has done up thread. Start seeing who isn't posting about it, and start a private conversation. I've followed a few GC pages on Facebook and have started to like and comment. My confidence is growing. Keep engaging with this board, for as long as we have it.

I'm fortunate that my closest friends are on bird with my views, but I've lost a really useful Facebook group of women. Two of the ladies on there have trans kids and are full steam into treatment etc. Before that the group was amazing, now it's all about that and nothing else.

I feel your pain. I work in a creative industry and have been incredibly upset when I’ve been shouted down online for posting pro JK / GC articles. Yesterday in response to my posting the Sarah Field piece, a trans person I’ve known slightly for years bombarded me with numerous furious DMs accusing me of bigotry / fascism etc and disclosing a traumatic background of abuse, calling me a Terf and saying that Terfs make them suicidal . My attempts at courteous conciliatory response fell on stony ground. They also threatened to “ go public “ with my apparently saying I considered them a threat to women ( when if actually said the opposite). I feel badly shaken by all this and also very alone. This board is very helpful . Finding other GC women locally would help

OP, have you considered playing them at their own game? Post things like “Of course male rapists should be put in women’s prisons if they say they are trans. Women should be forced to shower naked with them, to validate their trans identity. It’s just tough that “Karen” White sexually assaulted four women prisoners - who cares about women’s rights. A transwoman is any man who says he is.”
“Of course male bodied transwomen should play in women’s rugby teams. The 30% increased risk of serious head and neck injury for the women, including paralysis, is a fair price to pay. “
“ The Olympics should have transwomen in all events, so women can never win a medal again in their own sports. Validation is much more important than silly women athletes’ rights.”
I’d be interested to hear the responses!

Can you find your Resisters OP?

It can be lonely but there are so many of us it shouldn't be!

Middle class folks who live in more alternative areas and work in the arts often live in echo chambers that have fuck all to do with the people effected worse by misogyny. They don't see the necessity of feminism, because in their bubble it seems to have paid off. But that's class that's protecting them, not sex, not gender, social class

Dead right, BoudiccasBoudoir. This needs to said a lot more often. Misogyny does the most harm to women with the fewest options.

And Etinox, I’m gutted that your colleagues working in DV are so unaware. Glad you get support here.

Hi, I feel the same. Anyone else work in the creative industries but also with links to academia? Also live in a woke area.

I get by as I have other women outside those bubbles to talk to. Also at the beginning of all this I did speak out and I saw enough of the people in each of those bubbles who thought the same as me, to realize I’m not alone.

So I get by by planning my escape from my industry whilst talking to people in the bubble about other things.

I work in a creative industry and live in London. I’m constantly baffled and alarmed that people are signing up to this. I feel like I’m swimming against a very powerful tide. Longing for the day when the bubble bursts. But when will it happen? If they can already ignore what’s happening in prisons and sports, what hope do we have?

@TheTamingOfTheresa

I feel your pain. I work in a creative industry and have been incredibly upset when I’ve been shouted down online for posting pro JK / GC articles. Yesterday in response to my posting the Sarah Field piece, a trans person I’ve known slightly for years bombarded me with numerous furious DMs accusing me of bigotry / fascism etc and disclosing a traumatic background of abuse, calling me a Terf and saying that Terfs make them suicidal . My attempts at courteous conciliatory response fell on stony ground. They also threatened to “ go public “ with my apparently saying I considered them a threat to women ( when if actually said the opposite). I feel badly shaken by all this and also very alone. This board is very helpful . Finding other GC women locally would help

Sorry to hear about this. Objectively, it sounds like someone has attacked you completely unfairly, insulted you and attempted to emotionally blackmail you and make false accusations, as well as threatening you. It's mad, though, that this is currently the go-to strategy for otherwise rational people who have bought into the ideology, and tacitly, if not explicitly, endorsed by lots of people who should know better.

I've said nothing under my own name on social media - I want to break into a creative industry which is heavily TWAW so it would be career suicide (before I even have one). I've had to stop following many of those people on twitter though as I find it too depressing.

In real life I've started to gently sound out people I think might be receptive to GC views, mostly in relation to JKR and the increasing use of gender instead of sex on surveys.

The only bright side is its the first time in years my conservative parents and I agree on politics, which was a great relief to all of us!

Just wanted to say you’re not alone I think there are plenty of us in the creative industries who are gender critical. I don’t feel I can be totally open, but I do faux naively question it IRL, and haven’t been excommunicated yet. I was so pleased to see prominent people in my industry signing the open letter. Made me feel less alone.

Thanks @ArabellaScott. I find it hard to see abuse and react appropriately to it but in this instance I think you’re right x

I'm 'fortunate' in that I no longer work so don't have to pretend there. Unfortunately both my DD and DH are full on TWAW. It's made it very difficult for me to see my DH as the person I thought he was. We have occasional discussions about it but he never shifts his position. I don't know if it will affect our relationship enough to break it but it's definitely had an affect. I can only hope that he understands properly at some point. With my DD (even at 32) she hasn't fully recognised the impact TWAW will have on women's rights but she will when she's at the sharp end.

In the meantime, I come here to read and understand more. I also joined 2 of the women's campaigning groups and whilst I'm unable to physically go to meet ups I help raise awareness in other ways. It makes me feel like I'm not going mad! Others feel like me. I also post 'gentle' GC stuff on FB and have had a few messages privately from other GC women. You do what you can do and keep telling yourself that it's not you it's them. And even if it were you and not them, where's the debate, the discussion, the acceptance of different opinions? It's mad.

@TheTamingOfTheresa

I feel your pain. I work in a creative industry and have been incredibly upset when I’ve been shouted down online for posting pro JK / GC articles. Yesterday in response to my posting the Sarah Field piece, a trans person I’ve known slightly for years bombarded me with numerous furious DMs accusing me of bigotry / fascism etc and disclosing a traumatic background of abuse, calling me a Terf and saying that Terfs make them suicidal . My attempts at courteous conciliatory response fell on stony ground. They also threatened to “ go public “ with my apparently saying I considered them a threat to women ( when if actually said the opposite). I feel badly shaken by all this and also very alone. This board is very helpful . Finding other GC women locally would help

So sorry that you had to experience that reaction which is completely disproportionate. I find the reference to them feeling suicidal utterly inappropriate, almost similar to what abusers use against their victims.

Personally I don't do Twitter and only use Facebook for fairly innocuous stuff. I don't use it as a place to vent my opinions.
Many/most of my rl friends are GC. Those that aren't, we don't particularly talk about this, but if we do, I would close the conversation before it got to the point of upsetting anyone.
I find it baffling how emotional people get about this topic particularly when they have no skin in the game. It's been hyped to zone into some deeply emotional responses. You really need some calm discussion and empathy on both sides.
You are far from alone.

I joined a Discord group ages ago and quickly found out that my views were at odds with the rest of the group but then they were much younger than me. I had to come out of that group for my own sanity. Occasionally, I'll have a rant at work but they don't know much about it all and it's not something I want to bring into work anyway but it does spill out.

I am immensely lucky that DP supports my views wholeheartedly. I talk about it with him and he is a good sounding board. I would say he knows more than me on the whole about identity politics.

We often talk about what would happen if we didn't agree on this, how it would impact on our relationship.

I have an online group of RL friends from college and we all still chat. I have to be very careful how I tread so as not to upset anyone (many gay rights campaigners who moved on to the next thing their orgs pushed), and it’s a bit exhausting. I’ve managed to politely raise my doubts about using blockers/hormones on kids without being called any slurs or yelled at. They went off on JKR the other day and I just ignored it.

However I Do see their point. Some of the rhetoric on both sides does come across as hateful or mean spirited, especially the sheer volume of it. Not the fearless women like Kathleen S and Maya F Using their real names but the faceless mob. Which is really the problem with twitter in the first place.

Me! I'm in a creative field and daren't open my mouth anywhere colleagues might hear me. I suspect if the surface were scratched, though, that many of them would be horrified at what they're actually supporting in the name of being kind.

This board has been invaluable to me, although I mostly lurk. I'm biding my time, bathing in the recent sunlight, and telling myself the next Olympics (whenever it may be) will firmly knock the house of cards down.

My friend is a powerhouse comedy producer (and GC) and she actively checks social media before hiring new talent. So, being punished/excluded for your beliefs goes both ways, despite what TRAs seem to think.

@Tootletum

Yeah I read that blog too about the breastfeeding TW. She has such serious issues. Really sad to read but also incredibly noticeable in the way she writes that the only thing that matters is her affirmation and other people needing to agree all the time. Never mentions the baby's needs. The people in her life are viewed as either for her or against her, rather than maybe having a variety of opinions. Strange how if sex is so fluid, her views of the world are so binary.

Great comment.

Let's try a thought experiment:

'Yesterday in response to my posting an article on problems with Brexit, a person who wants to leave the EU whom I’ve known slightly for years bombarded me with numerous furious DMs accusing me of bigotry / fascism etc and disclosing a traumatic background of abuse, calling me a fash and saying that Remainers make them suicidal . My attempts at courteous conciliatory response fell on stony ground. They also threatened to “ go public".'

I'm not making any implications about anyone's voting habits here, just showing how absurd, abusive and disproportionate the response would be were one expressing another political view. The sensible response would be to discuss, perhaps disagreement, but to use manipulative and threatening behaviour as a response to someone expressing a perfectly rational and legitimate opinion is totally not on.

The issues involved affect us all, very profoundly. Nobody can opt out of their sex; we are all implicated in any change to laws affecting women's rights.

@talkingdeadscot

I'm 'fortunate' in that I no longer work so don't have to pretend there. Unfortunately both my DD and DH are full on TWAW. It's made it very difficult for me to see my DH as the person I thought he was. We have occasional discussions about it but he never shifts his position. I don't know if it will affect our relationship enough to break it but it's definitely had an affect. I can only hope that he understands properly at some point. With my DD (even at 32) she hasn't fully recognised the impact TWAW will have on women's rights but she will when she's at the sharp end.

In the meantime, I come here to read and understand more. I also joined 2 of the women's campaigning groups and whilst I'm unable to physically go to meet ups I help raise awareness in other ways. It makes me feel like I'm not going mad! Others feel like me. I also post 'gentle' GC stuff on FB and have had a few messages privately from other GC women. You do what you can do and keep telling yourself that it's not you it's them. And even if it were you and not them, where's the debate, the discussion, the acceptance of different opinions? It's mad.

I would love to know how your DH explains his views. How did he come to reach the conclusion that TWAW? What’s his reasoning? It’s so against any logical argument. I would find it very hard if my DH felt differently from me. Respect to you!

@TheTamingOfTheresa : "disclosing a traumatic background of abuse"

Unfortunately I believe trans ideology is being used by many abuse victims as a coping strategy.
The hatred this person directed at you (and at all GCs TERFs etc) is deeply tied up with their feelings towards their abuser and their own self worth.

Thankfully I’m self employed in an industry that’s mainly populated by other self employed people, but I do have friends who are full on TWAW. I just never discuss it with them or interact with their social media posts on the subject. Some of them are quite chronically woke to boot, though as with most woke people their understanding of many issues is somewhat superficial and goes little further than fashionable buzzwords, or in a couple of cases, naked self-interest. I just find it really easy to ignore, hell, I’ve even got a friend who’s an anti-vaxxer 😬
They’re all good people, just myopic and far less informed than they think they are, and their views are certainly less popular than it appears on social media, where it’s easy to just not engage with them about certain topics.