Pronouns again

[Etinox]

I feel so upset. Not just pissed off and marginalised. But properly tearful as one by one my peers at work add she/her to their signatures.

What industry do you work in? I hear you - I see it in mine too and it’s utterly depressing. Thankfully it’s mostly the younger ones so far.

Thanks @SmallPug
I work in DV 😞
You couldn’t make it up, and yes it’s the younger ones.

I’m hoping it’s a fad. It does seem to be lasting rather a long time. Who do they think it’s helping? It’s so performative. I’m embarrassed for them.

Is there any mileage in putting "not prepared to marginalise anybody by declaring pronouns, not offended by any used"

@SmallPug

I’m hoping it’s a fad. It does seem to be lasting rather a long time. Who do they think it’s helping? It’s so performative. I’m embarrassed for them.

Performative. This. Soppy wringing wet young women in management, flapping their arms and trilling we must be nice, the Freedom Programme is so heteronormative while I plod on working with women many of whom present as non binary because lesbians are invisible & the world is such a hostile violent place to girls.

@Greencoatblue

Is there any mileage in putting "not prepared to marginalise anybody by declaring pronouns, not offended by any used"

Brilliant.

Yes it rolls on. Had to endure work training session where facilitator only used 'female identifying people' throughout ... I say nothing. But not behind the scenes many colleagues openly express scepticism and mockery of all this crap.

Sorry, behind the scenes..

If the men are not putting he/him, why are the women capitulating?

It's colonisation.

I work at an NHS aligned charity and we have been comprehensively Stonewalled. So far pronoun usage is confined to a few idiots, mostly youngsters proving how woke they are.

Solidarity OP. This shall pass.

@Greencoatblue

This is a super idea!

Is there any mileage in putting "not prepared to marginalise anybody by declaring pronouns, not offended by any used

I've been thinking about this pronouns business and it may have been said before that I haven't seen, but I'm thinking (this doesn't apply if they request it via email to everyone, I guess) if they are asking a woman (or a man) what her pronouns are, it could cause great mental anguish as it could be interpreted, if someone has to ask, as not being able to tell that she is a woman (maybe especially if the woman is now older and could be conscious of "losing her looks"). The same could apply to trans people too.
I think personally I might be very offended.

I'm already picturing one of those talking heads programs on BBC 2 where people look back and remember all the weird fashions of the 70s or whatever.

This decade is going to be SO embarrassing.

Everyone will try to make light of it by showing old screenshots - "can you believe what Jameela Jamil's Twitter bio looked like in 2020? Oh my god..."

"We didn't think anything of it - everyone was doing it!"

I told one of my employees to remove their pronouns in their email signature. No one who would have emailed them would have needed to know their pronouns. They would never need to email the public and be known as "ms, mrs, mr" etc, so no need.

One dreadful person I used to work with many years ago put in her out of hours signature:

"I won't be in on Tuesday and won't have access to emails as I will be exploring the new modalities of the patient care pathway with our fantastic leader and CEO John Smith"

I have never forgotten the arselicky awfulness and pointlessness of it. My overriding feeling then, as now with pronouns, was "Put a sock in it. Nobody cares. You are not that important"

Shame I can't put that as my email signature.

Me too - proper upset, tears and all, yesterday, when a woman who joined our department a few years after me - and who have have offered a very large amount of support over the past ten years - started trying to push this as policy in a meeting. I offered her support because we're in a male-dominated profession and women need all the support they can get. Just heart-broken really to realise that she's never passed on support to the next generation of women who've joined us since, nor ever will. She'll change her email signature to include pronouns and that's it - job done!

A worthless, selfish individual who I never should have wasted so much time on - now scooping up all the love for progressive thinking, whilst never actually lifting a finger to make the world a better place.

@dumpling23

Me too - proper upset, tears and all, yesterday, when a woman who joined our department a few years after me - and who have have offered a very large amount of support over the past ten years - started trying to push this as policy in a meeting. I offered her support because we're in a male-dominated profession and women need all the support they can get. Just heart-broken really to realise that she's never passed on support to the next generation of women who've joined us since, nor ever will. She'll change her email signature to include pronouns and that's it - job done! A worthless, selfish individual who I never should have wasted so much time on - now scooping up all the love for progressive thinking, whilst never actually lifting a finger to make the world a better place.

👊 sister. “scooping up all the love for progressive thinking, whilst never actually lifting a finger to make the world a better place.” Ain’t that the truth.

A glimmer of hope, I sent an email about a project (you know actual work!) to a contact at a partner organisation who are even younger and woker than us and got forwarded to half a dozen new contacts- most of them didn’t have pronouns. 👍🏻

@EyesOpening

I've been thinking about this pronouns business and it may have been said before that I haven't seen, but I'm thinking (this doesn't apply if they request it via email to everyone, I guess) if they are asking a woman (or a man) what her pronouns are, it could cause great mental anguish as it could be interpreted, if someone has to ask, as not being able to tell that she is a woman (maybe especially if the woman is now older and could be conscious of "losing her looks"). The same could apply to trans people too. I think personally I might be very offended.

You are really overthinking.

Unless you're at a desperately woke event, woke corporate environment etc, pronouns aren't asked. They're shoved in your face.

Don’t be too disheartened! This time last year I had pronouns on my email signature. It wasn’t a political statement, but something encouraged by the HR dept at the Silicon Valley tech company where I worked and I simply didn’t give it more than 5 seconds thought. I’ve always been a feminist and have always clearly understood the differences between sex and gender. Sounds daft but I just hadn’t really connected the two and just wanted to be supportive of trans people. In fact, I still really do want to advance trans rights - just not at the expense of sex-based rights.

I would never use pronouns now and also object to ‘cis’, but, even so, might struggle to articulate why in a way that corporate-type colleagues would easily understand. So don’t feel too disheartened - there’s no telling how much thought has gone into this and what these women are actually thinking :)

Will add too that even if my work hadn’t promoted pronouns, I might have done it anyway as it was something lots of people I respected were doing on social media. I was just being stupid and unthinking and, if you’d engaged me in debate, you’d have quickly realised I’m gender critical at heart.

Thinking about it, plenty of my other U.K. based colleagues didn’t use pronouns so I probably just wanted to fit in. Embarrassing now, but there you have it.

EyesOpening
I've been thinking about this pronouns business and it may have been said before that I haven't seen, but I'm thinking (this doesn't apply if they request it via email to everyone, I guess) if they are asking a woman (or a man) what her pronouns are, it could cause great mental anguish as it could be interpreted, if someone has to ask, as not being able to tell that she is a woman (maybe especially if the woman is now older and could be conscious of "losing her looks"). The same could apply to trans people too
I think personally I might be very offended

You are really overthinking.

Unless you're at a desperately woke event, woke corporate environment etc, pronouns aren't asked. They're shoved in your face

I’m not sure how that addresses my point.
What I’m saying is, that prior to me finding out about all this, a few short months ago, if someone at work, came round to our small teams, to speak to us individually and asked me if I was a he/him or a she/her, I’d be wondering what the hell was wrong with me that they couldn’t tell from looking and I would have been grossly offended and it would be playing on mind for ever after.
I would also imagine that a trans person, who thought they’d altered themselves enough to pass for the opposite sex, might also be offended.

I'm just saying it doesn't work like that in real life.

People don't go up to individuals "Hi, what are your pronouns?" As quite honestly that would indeed be a rude question.

If someone is a non-binary or non passing trans person, everyone will know about it you won't have to ask, in the same way you never need to ask if someone is vegan, they just tell you at every opportunity.

What you get are events where everyone has to wear a pronoun badge, eg in Student halls or the BBC and other woke environments, or you have to include pronouns in your work email signature for no reason other than woke.

Everyone basically has pronouns shoved in their face and it's tedious.

If someone is a non-binary or non passing trans person, everyone will know about it you won't have to ask, in the same way you never need to ask if someone is vegan, they just tell you at every opportunity.

So very, very true.

I was on a work zoom call recently and one of my colleagues had his pronouns on his screen name. The pronouns he chose weren't a surprise as of course the beard gives it away but a work friend who knows my politics and I had a giggle about it.

He wanted me to change my screen name to MooFolk [oi / you].

He knows me well.

Oh dear, The regular weekly workplace-wide email yesterday came with a whole section about pronouns - along the lines of "Titles such as Dr can mean that gender is not clear."

Why the FUCK do you think I use a non-sexed title? Exactly so no-one can make assumptions about me, based on my sex. Because being required to say "Mrs" or Miss" is soooooooooo progressive.

Problem is, the only email address they gave for comment was one for the LGBTQIA+ (seriously) Officer. I may have to raise it at the next meeting of the Equality & Diversity committee I sit on.

It isn't necessary a sign that they have strong feelings on the subject. They might just vaguely think they are being polite.

I think its as silly as putting 'Mrs' on your sign off, but as long as they aren't asking you to put your pronouns on your email, I'd just ignore.