Australian sport transgender inclusion

[Kit19]

You’ll be unsurprised you know that the inclusion of trans athletes comes above all else 🙄

Tennis Australia, have a read of the case studies! www.tennis.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/DI-20-010-Transgender-Guide.pdf

[quote Goannaforanna]Tennis Australia, have a read of the case studies! www.tennis.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/DI-20-010-Transgender-Guide.pdf[/quote]

It's like watching an over indulgent parent and a stompy footed toddler. Basically, whatever the trans player wants (changing rooms, arbitrary assignment to tournament of their choice, demanding the ladies be made unisex because they don't want to go in a bog with urinals), the trans player gets.

And a 12 year old on cross sex hormones

@CaraDuneRedux

Let's spell out in simple language what they are proposing.

Note that the sports bodies listed include the governing bodies of Australian rules football (a full contact sport) and rugby union (a full contact sport).

They are saying that if it comes to a straight choice between protecting women from a significantly raised risk of injury, up to and including life changing spinal injuries and (worst case) death, or not hurting trans players' feelings, they put trans players first.

That's right: male people's hurt feelings count for more than women's spines and lives.

But if true equality is desired...does it really matter who competed with who? Should not men, women and trans be able to compete against each other?

Erm hannah mouncey quit cos they weren't allowed in the showers with their in tact body, with the rest of the team.

Even more precisely, Hannah Mouncey quit because the female players didn't want to shower with them any more. Hannah was allowed in at first, and then for some reason the women got unhappy about it.

But clearly there's no way that the women's change of heart could in any way have been anything to do with Hannah's behaviour, in or out of the showers - the problem is that women are mean and capricious.

😭 for Hannah's poor treatment.

Oh I forgot to ask! How do sports governing bodies actually happen? Like would it be possible for women to form a new governing body from the grassroots for these sports, taking the clubs with them that want female players to be safe?

Or would there be the usual problems in Australia with mobs forming when they tried to meet, etc? And then I guess likely problems getting funding too.

It's like watching an over indulgent parent and a stompy footed toddler. Basically, whatever the trans player wants (changing rooms, arbitrary assignment to tournament of their choice

Thats exactly it. I mean it never seems to matter its a mens or womens team when they join with the non binary players but all of a sudden the bathrooms an issue?

Why does some stuff matter and other stuff doesn't. Almost like they can pick or choose depending on what benefits them at the time

statement: That's right: male people's hurt feelings count for more than women's spines and lives

actual response to above statement which is actually quoted within the comment: But if true equality is desired...does it really matter who competed with who? Should not men, women and trans be able to compete against each other?

Jesus JAQoffing Christ.

@Kantastic

Oh I forgot to ask! How do sports governing bodies actually happen? Like would it be possible for women to form a new governing body from the grassroots for these sports, taking the clubs with them that want female players to be safe?

Or would there be the usual problems in Australia with mobs forming when they tried to meet, etc? And then I guess likely problems getting funding too.

To an extent, yes, they get set up when a group of like minded individuals get together. Then sometimes you get schisms... There are two boxing governing bodies.

In the USA, there are two powerlifting governing bodies, one completely TWAW and the other "nah, we're gonna divide competitions by sex."

I'm just ignoring that comment upthread Kantastic on the grounds that you can't have a reasonable discussion about how to make women's sport fair with someone who doesn't think women's sport should exist in the first place.

They are saying that if it comes to a straight choice between protecting women from a significantly raised risk of injury, up to and including life changing spinal injuries and (worst case) death, or not hurting trans players' feelings, they put trans players first.

This goes to show how bollocks this is! I'm hoping that the world will soon realize that this is the worst case of "Emperors new clothes" ever.

@CaraDuneRedux

I'm just ignoring that comment upthread Kantastic on the grounds that you can't have a reasonable discussion about how to make women's sport fair with someone who doesn't think women's sport should exist in the first place.

Actually, you're right, I don't think there should be separate leagues and games for men and women.

Sport is sport, and I think we should get rid of these old fashioned views of men's and women's games.

If that means that some sports are dominated by men then so be it, and if it means that some sports are dominated by women, then so be it too.

(Weight categories in combat sports makes sense, and does not restrict gender)

I’m all ears as to which sports you think would become dominated by women!

Isnt mens gymnastics different to womens?

Forcing men to do moves the same way women do would hurt them. And vice versa .

Well, it's a viewpoint, I suppose. Something of a minority one, mercifully. And I guess you don't play sport yourself, or have daughters who play sport.

Either way, like I said, you can't really have a discussion about fairness in women's sports with someone who doesn't believe women's sports should exist. So I'm a bit puzzled as to why you're bothering to post. What are you hoping to get out of it?

@Kit19

I’m all ears as to which sports you think would become dominated by women!

Equestrian events, shooting events, certain types of gymnastics; all have a level playing field.

There is also an argument for Darts, Pool/Snooker, Chess, and sport karate (not full contact).

@CaraDuneRedux

Well, it's a viewpoint, I suppose. Something of a minority one, mercifully. And I guess you don't play sport yourself, or have daughters who play sport.

Either way, like I said, you can't really have a discussion about fairness in women's sports with someone who doesn't believe women's sports should exist. So I'm a bit puzzled as to why you're bothering to post. What are you hoping to get out of it?

I guess my point is that I disagree saying it's unfair for trans women to compete in women's sports.

Anyway, back to the actual topic of the thread: I also read the water polo guidelines which seemed to be "if a non-bepenised person objects to a be-penised person in their showers, tell them not to be so bloody bigoted."

Funny how whenever there's a choice between person A wants something, person B doesn't want that thing, the choice always seems to get determined by penis ownership.

I guess my point is that I disagree saying it's unfair for trans women to compete in women's sports.

Well, your view does have the virtue of honesty, I suppose, which is rare.

We've been saying for ages that trans-inclusion means the end of women's sports.

You're quite happy with the end of women's sports.

Internally consistent. Not a desirable outcome as far as I'm concerned - basically telling 3.5 billion people that they have no right to fair competition against their peers, but it is at least internally consistent.

Wonder if womens sports was officially eradicated besides the scraps so generously granted as a potential female domination option, where transwomen would then play...

I guess my point is that I disagree saying it's unfair for trans women to compete in women's sports.

Have you read the research that shows there is little change to the benefits of a male puberty after transitioning, no matter how much transwomen wish this was true? If not, I suggest that you read up on it.

Also, you could read just why World Rugby has called for a ban on transwomen in their sport for the actual safety of women. The female kind.

Or maybe you have some studies or research papers that prove the opposite that you would like to share? I am eager to read as much as possible about the subject.

This does nothing to dispell my feelings that Australia is an inherently misogynistic country. Sorry, Aussies!

I think what we're seeing here is the Lisa Nandy approach to a reductio ad absurdum (in Nandy's case it was putting male rapists in women's prisons).

The argument for most of us goes thus: "Insisting that TWAW - literally and without exception - leads to conclusion C. Conclusion C is absurd. Therefore (reductio ad absurdum) the starting premise that TWAW literally and without exception must have been wrong."

The argument for the Lisa Nandys of this world goes "I am so deeply committed to my irrational belief that TWAW literally adn without exception that I will embrace any absurdity which flows from that premise."

Put male rapists in with a literally captive population of women - fine, no problem.

End the right of 3.5 billion women to take part in competitive sport in a fair way - fine, no problem.

Like I said, internally consistent. Barking mad, but internally consistent.

Wonder if womens sports was officially eradicated besides the scraps so generously granted as a potential female domination option, where transwomen would then play...

True - does SodaPerson realise how transphobic they're being by effectively forcing transwomen to play sport against men?

There would be no female competitors - it would only be transwomen versus men.

That would be extremely invalidating for the poor brave transwomen.

Can you imagine how Rachel McKinnon would have coped if those masters cycle races didn't have separate divisions? We'd never have seen those magnificent thighs in action.

Men & women already compete in equestrian events & always have - women do not dominate

Shooting - in the mixed events that have been held at the Olympics only 2 women have won medals

I’ve no idea what you mean by certain types of gymnastics but presuming you mean amalgamating all artistic gymnastics events into one category - vault, floor, high bar, parallel bar, rings would almost certainly be dominated by men with superior upper body strength, stamina & speed. Women would never become all around champions

Darts - already open to women & has been for a long time but only Fallon Sharrock has broken through. Theoretically no reason women couldn’t compete equally but dominate? Not for decades

Pool/snooker - again men’s snooker/pool is open to women if they make the qualifying but hardly any do so the chances of them dominating are again slim to nothing

Chess - really? Again chess tournaments are open to women if they qualify but they don’t

Not only do the physical differences between the sexes have to be considered but also the fact that society is inherently sexist. Even in sports where women are successful, elite sports women repeatedly report kit that isn’t adapted for women, lack of training facilities, lack of coaching, poor or no pay, etc etc Laura

Every sport where a woman has a chance of making a living would be dominated by men. Laura kenny is amazing - how far do you think she’d get competing against her husband in cycling?

Can you imagine how Rachel McKinnon would have coped if those masters cycle races didn't have separate divisions? We'd never have seen those magnificent thighs in action.

Every cloud has a silver lining, I suppose.